Re: ECIR Group 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference -- Early Bird Expiring soon!


I just registered.  Looking forward to the conference.  Jackie and Tori

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On Tuesday, July 27, 2021, 9:49 AM, Nancy C <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Early Bird pricing expires next Saturday, 07.31.21, midnight EDT.

Genetics and Exercisetwo exciting topics that have come up recently in conversation here, almost every day.  Based on comments when registering, understanding the impact of each on EMS has attendees excited to learn more. Each of these two featured speakers have dedicated their focus to these two topics. Have a look:
Shannon Pratt Phillips, MS, PhD, PAS — On Exercise
  • The Effect of Exercise on Glucose Metabolism and Insulin Sensitivity in the Horse.
This presentation will focus on the basic science of glucose metabolism and insulin sensitivity, and how exercise — both acute (e.g., a one-time exercise bout) and chronic exercise (e.g., exercise conditioning) — affects it. It will summarize relevant research in this field, and will provide up-to-date information for horse owners and veterinarians about the importance of exercise for their horses.
  • Strategies for Using Exercise as Part of Dietary Management for Overweight and/or Insulin Resistant Horses. This presentation will be a more practical guide for increasing exercise in our horses and how the combination of dietary restriction and exercise can have an impact on weight-loss efforts and glucose metabolism.
Elaine Norton, DVM, MS, PhD, DACVIM-LA — On Genetics
  • The Genetics of EMS. 
We have suspected for over a decade that genetics contributes to Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS). However, we are just now discovering the full impact of genetics on this syndrome. This talk will focus on the heritability of EMS, as well as identified regions of the genome impacting this disease.
  • The Impact of Genetics on Height and Insulin Dysregulation in Welsh Ponies. 
Ponies have unique metabolic profiles and are at the highest risk of developing Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS). However, we have yet to determine why ponies have such a unique metabolic profile. This talk will focus on a recently identified genetic variant affecting both height and insulin dysregulation in a population of Welsh ponies.

Just 17 days until the NO Laminitis! Conference opens. Just 16 days until the Conference Orientation hour from your hosts, Cindy and Sherry, on Thursday night.

Full schedule here:

When: The weekend of August 13 - 15, 2021.

Where: ECIR Virtual Conference Room at the location of your choice.


Thanks to all who have registered already! It is a joy to see your response.

As always, many thanks to our generous Benefactors who strongly support the needs of the ECIR Group members.

California Trace
Soft-Ride Equine Comfort Boots
Auburn Laboratories, Inc. - APF
Mad Barn
Custom Equine Nutrition - VT Blend

Black Horse Spirit, LLC
Progressive Hoof Care Providers

Anderson Feed - NuZu Feed
Omega Fields
My Best Horse
Hay Chix
Island Pharmacy
Triple Crown
Pure Sole
Ontario Dehy

Sox for Horses

New England Equine Balance
Yank Gulch Equine
Great Plains Forage Balance
Ration Plus

On behalf of your hosts,
Cindy McGinley and Sherry Morse,


the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference Committee.
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room

Jackie Decker and Tori
June 2016
White City, Oregon

Re: Help with Hoof Evaluation Response to Lavinia.

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Rachel,

Good job on getting the posting part figured out.

I'll get you something tomorrow so you have it to share with the trimmer on Sat.

Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

Re: Help with Hoof Evaluation Response to Lavinia.

Rachel Fazio

Hi all - I am a member since 2016, but this is my first post, about my horse Ty's hooves - as we just changed trimmers - I originally posted on the ECIRHoof page - but Lavinia asked that I respond to her on the ECIR main page.  So here is my response.



Hi Lavinia - thanks so much for your reply, sorry I am still trying to navigate posting messages.  Now that I think I have figured out how to post via the web, I think I will do so.  Yes, Ty has been IR probably for a long while, but we first figured it out in 2016 shortly before I found this site and started taking Dr. Kellon's classes.  We manage him mostly on symptoms - fat deposits over eyes, at tail head and sheath.  During ACTH rise he can get footsore, he also gets lethargic and rubs his head a lot (not sure if that is a PPID symptom) but so far overt laminitis has not been our experience (thank goodness) and hopefully, that trend will hold.  We are very strict with his diet, but during fall the last couple of years we are soaking even low sugar hay (6% ESC less than 1% starch) just to try to keep him as close to normal as possible. - so seems like something more is going on.  I know that cortisol rhythm testing is not a valid PPID test - unfortunately, we have very limited access to veterinary care up here - and our vet is reluctant to do the Cornell test - but I will keep working on him.  Otherwise, we would have to drive at least an hour, which I think would throw off the results anyway.

Ty just turned 26 in May.

If you can do some markups I would appreciate it - his hooves are hard as granite and I think the new trimmer is having a difficult time, but I would appreciate any guidance so I can at least start to have a conversation with her.  She hasn't done anything to the soles on previous trims - but she did trim back the frogs the first trim, this is what has grown back since then and I have asked her not to trim them anymore.

Hopefully, you will receive this reply - but I will also cut and paste and send it out via ECIR main - with Re: Help with Hoof Evaluation Response to Lavinia.

Thanks again,


Rachel (passive participant since 2016)
Ty Mustang IR/likely early-onset PPID
Big Bear City, CA

Re: Purina Equine Sr. - My Brain Hurts...

ferne fedeli

I figure if Ontario Dehy started making those rocks (I called them Tootsie Rolls) again we would be after them with hachets or something!!!  Ha.  I LOVE the soft cubes!!!

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History



Re: Less energy

Jennifer Green

I want to say yes so badly but I just don’t see it (sigh). I know I have to be patient but it just seems like it’s taking so long to get rid of the belly. 
2021 | Album

Re: Diet/Supplement Questions for Cupcake (Alison) + recommended blood work + Prascend dose

Sherry Morse

Hi Rebecca,

Normal horses do not eat 24/7 even if they have access to food at all times. However, one of the issues with many IR horses is that they have elevated Leptin so they don't have an off switch when it comes to eating.  Letting this sort of horse eat free choice will result in them remaining fat and continuing to have elevated insulin in a never ending cycle until something is changed (which is usually the amount of hay fed and restrictions in feeding). 

If Cupcake is taking a full 24 hours to eat her hay ration that's fine as long as the amount she's fed is still what she should be eating and not free choice.

If the vet is coming in the next few days you can test ACTH, you just need to be cognizant of the rise and that there is an adjustment to be made for that.  The fact that you're seeing positive improvements points to IR being the main issue and the diet changes helping with that.

Re: Less energy

Sherry Morse

Hi Jennifer,

To me he looks less "lumpy" in the hind end than he did in the pictures you posted last week. Have you noticed a change there as well?  And any change in his crest?

Re: Supplements and hay thread

Sherry Morse

Hi KC,

You will find most of the information you need in your welcome message:  Once you have had your hay tested you can contact one of the people who are trained to help with mineral balancing for assistance:

Re: Purina Equine Sr. - My Brain Hurts...

Eleanor Kellon, VMD


How long are you soaking the cubes? Hot or cold water? Hay pieces will soak up quite a bit of water and become soft but it takes a while.
Eleanor in PA 
EC Owner 2001

Re: Wellness Ready

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

I agree it would be a fantastic thing to have but advertising it is premature. It hasn't been proven to work or be reliable yet. I certainly hope they are not accepting money/orders yet but it wouldn't be the first time a possibly bogus test method was fostered on horse owners. EquiSeq is a good example.
Eleanor in PA 
EC Owner 2001



Is there any intrinsic reason haylage is not as suitable as hay for EMS types?  I'm getting my hay cut next week and can get it wrapped at around 65% moisture to make haylage - or risk the weather and leave it drying another few days and make hay.  Obviously the base grass be the same so is there a reason not to wrap?  I will be feeding Evan, EMS type that reacts on grass and several other fat ponies, one of whom is diagnosed as EMS and has had laminitis

Spalding, Lincolnshire, UK
September 2019

Re: Wellness Ready

Sherry Morse

As far as we can tell it's not actually being sold anywhere yet, but they have already set up a slick marketing site.

Re: Less energy

Jennifer Green

Re: Purina Equine Sr. - My Brain Hurts...


To All -

Thank you very much for all the information - just to make it more clear - the cubes that were hard from OD a couple of years ago were very hard and when soaked, they turned into that pea soup consistency - maybe I shouldn't have said pea soup consistency - was trying to find something yesterday that resembled the way they looked and found photos of (don't laugh) cake mixes that had been blended and if you know what cake mixes look like when they are blended, that's the way these cubes looked - there were no bits of hay in them and they were of a creamy smooth consistency as in a cake mix blend before it's put in the oven -

My pony now drinks all the liquid around these newer shredded and soaked cubes from OD and is then left with the coarse hay pieces which he has trouble swallowing.  No amount of water or soaking time will matter because the hay is still there and is still coarse for him.

I saw a post on here from a while ago from someone who said that her horse had a sore throat and couldn't eat forage of any kind as he had choked on something and his throat was still sore - I feel that this is the problem with my pony - from choking a few times, I believe his throat has been irritated by it and so the coarseness of the cubes irritates his throat as our throats would feel if we tried to eat when we had a sore throat - Also, I did notice though that at the times when I've given him Banamine if he is a little arthritic or sore, he can eat these coarse cubes with no problem at all - so the Banamine takes away the pain in his throat

I've been looking into the Standlee Timothy Alfalfa haycubes (don't know the NSC numbers for them though) for him as there is Bentonite added which will make the cubes hard and therefore like the "cake mix" consistency that he had before - don't know if Alfalfa makes them that consistency but what I've read about binders, they make the cubes a certain consistency and hard which is okay with me as long as they turn out to be that smooth cake mix consistency.

Will let you know what happens - 
Nancy Gaiser-NY-2021

Re: Supplements and hay thread

kc betzel

How do you know How Much  of a supplement, vitamin, mineral, etc horses are supposed to have. Is there a chart somewhere so we don’t over-supplement our horses? I am late to this thread so sorry if my question is redundant.

“People inspire you or they drain you....pick them wisely”

kC Betzel in South Carolina 2021

Re: Wellness Ready

Rita Chavez

So, does this mean they're selling a tool that isn't 100% working yet? Very confusing in their lingo. I am excited about such a product being available for quick dx of issues like IR. 
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

Re: Welcome me back but diagnoses is pending the vet visit in 2 weeks and subsequent results.

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

We actually have some good information on seasonal TRH responses in this paper from Australia . Just remember it's the southern hemisphere and seasons are reversed.
Eleanor in PA 
EC Owner 2001

Re: Welcome me back but diagnoses is pending the vet visit in 2 weeks and subsequent results.

Sherry Morse

Hi Carolyn,

Going forward it would be easier if you put the photos in an album in the CH subgroup: - click on "New Album" and name the album "Carolyn and Shakespeare" and then open it to load new photos.

This is of course assuming that he is PPID and/or IR, although given his breed and ability to get fat on air I'd say he's most likely IR.  I believe you meant to say a TRH stimulation test?  Just be aware that as we're approaching the seasonal rise there is no adjustment for post-stim TRH numbers during the rise so depending on what the baseline ACTH number is that may well be all you need for a diagnosis.

Re: Welcome me back but diagnoses is pending the vet visit in 2 weeks and subsequent results.


Hi Carolyn,

Is there a reason you want to do the TRH Stim test?  We usually recommend that when you’ve had equivocal endogenous testing done before - symptoms suggest a positive test but endogenous test comes back normal.  I don’t see that you’ve done that in your case history.  The TRH Stim test is not recommended during the fall rise because there are no testing normals to which you can compare your results.  The fall rise technically begins at the summer solstice at the end of June and lasts until the winter solstice in December.  It peaks at the equinox in September.  I would not spend the money to have a TRH Stim test done in August because it might well be misleading.  You can do the regular endogenous test as there are fall rise values to compare to.  Untreated PPID horses generally show an exaggerated fall rise, which can be diagnostic for PPID.

As you’re concerned about what happens to Shakespeare in the fall, with your vet’s agreement you could start pergolide now and note its effects or lack thereof.  Then, after the rise, you could take him off the pergolide for three weeks and test, using the Stim test if that seems important to you.  Waiting too late in the rise to begin pergolide has shown to be less effective at controlling PPID than starting it earlier.

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


Re: Excessive protein

Sherry Morse

Hi Jonna,

When you update your signature you also have a photo album: so you can post new pictures there and also add that link to your signature along with the Case History folder link.

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