Date   

Re: Mayonnaise for dosing

Bobbie Day
 

Great idea Cass,
I can’t imagine getting a mouth full of Mayo yuck!
Of course I wasn’t very popular for suggesting that there were better options.
I guess I just need to keep my mouth shut and keep scrolling!
I always ask why they’re not asking here.
Oh well
Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
Thank goodness that was never a issue for us.


--
Bobbie and Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21)
Utah, Nov 2019
NRC Plus 2020 , NAT , C&IR March 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: ECIR Group 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference -- Early Bird Expires TOMORROW

Nancy C
 

Hi Kandace

All lectures will be available on-demand, once the recordings are processed and uploaded. That is eighteen hours of lecture. You can review them here. https://www.nolaminitis.org/conference-schedule.php

We are not planning on including orientation in the recordings, as the "live" event for which orientation is developed, will now be a recording.

You will have access for six months via a special link, dedicated to your device.

Registration is now at full price and closes on August 6, 2021, midnight EDT.

Hope this helps!
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Mayonnaise for dosing

 

I've known quite a few endurance riders who used yogurt as a carrier for electrolytes. You just need to be sure the medication doesn't get wasted.
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album Deceased


Re: ECIR Group 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference -- Early Bird Expires TOMORROW

Kandace Krause
 

Hello Nancy C.,
I have been looking at these emails and I think I would really like to take part but I know I will not be available for the conference, not the Thursday night orientation.  Can you tell me what exactly is available in the six month availability, is it like being there live?  And will orientation be there also as it seems like no easy way to follow all lectures.
Kandace Krause
Rocky Mountains - Member Since Oct 2020

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:05 AM Nancy C <threecatfarm@...> wrote:
Early Bird pricing expires tomorrow Saturday, 07.31.21, midnight EDT (New York USA). Registration closes August 6, 2021, midnight EDT (New York USA).

RECORDINGS!!!! Recordings will be available to attendees, once processed and uploaded, for on-demand viewing on a dedicated link.

Don’t forget, Conference Orientation hour from your hosts, Cindy and Sherry, on Thursday night, August 12, 5:30pm - 6:30pm. Meet hosts Cindy McGinley and Sherry Morse, who will walk you through how this remote conference will unfold, and help you have the best conference possible.

Full schedule here:  https://www.nolaminitis.org/conference-schedule.php

When: The weekend of August 13 - 15, 2021.
Where: ECIR Virtual Conference Room at the location of your choice.

Registration: https://www.nolaminitis.org/registration.php
Who should attend: Anyone with equines in their care.

Thanks to all who have registered already! It is a joy to see your response. You are coming from all all over the globe, and it makes this volunteer very happy.

As always, many thanks to our generous Benefactors who strongly support the needs of the ECIR Group members.

DIAMOND 
California Trace
Soft-Ride Equine Comfort Boots
Auburn Laboratories, Inc. - APF
ForagePlus
Uckele
Mad Barn
Custom Equine Nutrition - VT Blend
HorseTech

PLATINUM 
Black Horse Spirit, LLC
Progressive Hoof Care Providers

GOLD 
Anderson Feed - NuZu Feed
Omega Fields
Equi-Analytical
My Best Horse
Hay Chix
Island Pharmacy
Beet-E-Bites
Triple Crown
Pure Sole
Ontario Dehy

SILVER 
Sox for Horses

BRONZE
New England Equine Balance
Yank Gulch Equine
Great Plains Forage Balance
Ration Plus

On behalf of your hosts,
Cindy McGinley and Sherry Morse,

and

the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference Committee.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room



Re: Diva laminitis, help and hoof evaluation

Jackie W
 

I am not a trimmer, but my horses have had casts put on a few times years ago. Most of the experiences were good and made the horse more comfortable except one time. The foot was very dry when it was applied and then we had rain, and the horse walked like a person wearing shoes that were too small until we could get the cast off.  I don’t know for sure what the issue was, but it seemed to me that the foot tried to expand with the extra moisture, and the cast would not allow expansion. This may not relate to your situation, but I just thought I would share the story. 

--
Jackie and Megan
Palm Bay, FL
Joined March 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Megan
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264114


Re: Saraphina insulin test results

CYNDI CARLSON
 


-- Hi Maxine,
I need to clarify yes human socks! the farrier packed Artimud in her sole area to prevent a abscess put human socks on then cloud boots with new blue inserts.and She is standing on lots of shavings.
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021


Re: [ADV] [Special] [ECIR] ECIR Group 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference -- Early Bird Expires TOMORROW

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Ruthie,

That is Central Daylight Time, just like the conference itself. Here's the link to the Conference schedule:

https://www.nolaminitis.org/conference-schedule.php

All the info you need can be found on the registration page.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: [ADV] [Special] [ECIR] ECIR Group 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference -- Early Bird Expires TOMORROW

Ruthie TK
 

Hello

Regarding conference orientation, I am not seeing a time zone specified. Are you sending a link to registrants? Please post details so we can plan to attend.
Thank you.

On Jul 30, 2021, at 7:05 AM, Nancy C <threecatfarm@...> wrote:


Don’t forget, Conference Orientation hour from your hosts, Cindy and Sherry, on Thursday night, August 12, 5:30pm - 6:30pm. Meet hosts Cindy McGinley and Sherry Morse, who will walk you through how this remote conference will unfold, and help you have the best conference possible.


Ruthie Thompson-Klein
360/ 468-2198



Re: Saraphina insulin test results

CYNDI CARLSON
 

Hi Lavinia

-- yes I have to say I was very concerned when I saw him take ANY sole off! Especially since he saw the rads, his concern was a abscess so he shaved some sole. He took toe off and what he called bars on July 24th.She had 2 grams of Bute that day ( per my conversation with him and vet to” get the job done”)and Philip suggested Equioxx for pain after the 24th. I gave her two days of Equioxx not knowing  Whether I should do that or not. I did not continue the Equioxx BUT after a vet visit last night, because my ongoing concerns with pain and not eating she suggested Equioxx again! I gave her two tabs last night, I will STOP! Due to the problems I NOW understand it will cause, I’m talking one day on them!Saraphina is currently in cloud boots,with Artimud,socks between hoofs and boots with blue pads in them on lots of shavings.i will pass this on to the farrier but my concerns Lavinia is what trimming can he do?My last hoof photos were after he trimmed her toes July 24th ( he said he could not cut anymore off) so he had no intention of coming back for 4 weeks. Upon your review he WILL come back at my request,he has been keeping in contact with me.Saraphina craves hay and hay particularly dry no grain, and yes she is getting a tube of Gastrogard daily. I would greatly appreciate any input!
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021


Re: Mayonnaise for dosing

 

I use ground flax, a little water and sugar-free syrup as a carrier for syringing pergolide. Flax in water is pretty sticky and helps keep the mixture in the mouth. The syrup is unnecessary, but since  I’m using 3 unpleasant tasting Prascend to increase pergolide dose quickly, it makes daily syringing easy.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: How many hours is safe to go between "meals"

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Nancy,

Sounds like her leptin is still elevated.  I took a look at your Case History and it doesn't look like you've had any bloodwork done since last year, is that correct?





Re: Diva laminitis, help and hoof evaluation

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Anna
It sounds like you did all the right things. So did you do a full sole coverage cast or just a rim cast? And when you say flexible material, is it the casting that you need do moisten then it goes hard, or something else? 
I had another thought-- did you use DIM or other padding on the heel area so the cast didn't pinch or rub the heels? That can also cause soreness. 
Hoping one of our proper trimmers can comment here as well. 

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: How many hours is safe to go between "meals"

 


Oh how I wish she loafed. This girl is like an equine vacuum. She eats like there is no tomorrow and will occasionally go out an sun herself and nap when it isn't too hot but here in the summer she is under a covered paddock with a fan so she will stand in front of that bale all day and eat and the amount of hay she can pull through the tiny holes on the top of the bale net is amazing. She will have to learn to loaf I guess. But I do think a 60/40 split will work best. This shall be interesting to say the least! Thank you!
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.


--
Nancy and Akira
3/20/2018  Burkesville KY

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Akira


Re: How many hours is safe to go between "meals"

 

Thank you Dr Kellon. Yes she is usually out 12 hrs in 12hrs on average. I do have a Greenguard Muzzle left over from when I did allow her morning pasture but I am hesitant to use that in her turnout/dry lot as it is a 70x140 outdoor dry lot but the "fencing" in between that and the pasture are round pen panels. She actually caught herself on it a couple years ago walking out in the morning through the gate when she went to rub her face on her way out and she broke the muzzle. I was able to fix it and I did get her a new one that she now has never worn....but the 20x40 covered paddock with the water trough and the existing round bale has 2 cedar posts (an old converted tobacco barn) one of which is the itching post, the other anchors the metal cage around the round bale currently but then would give her ample places to rub. And the inside covered paddock is separated from the stall area by a gate and 2 metal panels that could cause issues. I do have various size hole haynets. My concern is how rapid she is able to consume her hay. She can go through 10 lbs in the double net in 3-4 hrs. Is there an issue if she were to lose weight rapidly? Or should I not be concerned about that?
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.


--
Nancy and Akira
3/20/2018  Burkesville KY

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Akira


Re: Saraphina insulin test results

Maxine McArthur
 

Cyndi, when you said Saraphina has "socks" on, do you mean like human socks? Does she have any padding on the bottom of her feet? If she has bare (unshod) feet and just a thin layer of sock, you could try giving her some more padding. There are several ways to do this--boots with pads, or even baby diapers, or pads duct-taped to the feet. If she can't pick up her feet for you to do this, you may have to wait until she is lying down. Pad material is whatever works for her--yoga mats, wool felt, styrofoam, even layers of dry poultice can offer support and comfort. It needs to be something that supports the foot when weight is on it, but that pressure needs to come off when the horse takes weight off the foot. (This is why nailed-on shoes with pads aren't useful.)
You can also experiment with cutting out some of the pad to offer relief to any specifically painful areas. 

Cindy had some great suggestions re boots and pads in your previous thread, here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/266878


--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Bailey chronic RF lameness

Maxine McArthur
 

Oops, sorry Sherry! We must have been typing at the same time. Karen, you have two welcome messages! Let us know if you're running into any problems with uploading of information.
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Bailey chronic RF lameness

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Karen
Thank you for creating a case history for Bailey. Could you please add the link to your signature? Just paste it into the signature box in the Subscription tab (in the left-hand column on this page), add a space so it is 'live', and scroll down to click Save. You can see my CH link in my signature as an example. 

This message is to send you our welcome for new members, which has a lot of useful information on Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and (when possible) Exercise. Please read it through carefully as it should answer some of your questions. 

I had a couple of questions about your case history: 
1. Re her diet--we don't recommend any Nutrena feeds, as they tend to be too high in starch and/or fat for our metabolic horses. There is a list of recommended feeds here in our Files section: Safe Bagged Feeds.pdf (groups.io).
There is more on diet in the welcome message below. We do recommend getting your hay tested and minerals balanced to the hay. 
2. She was diagnosed with PPID in June 2019, but you have her on 1.5 Prascend started in November 2020--or was the dose raised in Nov 2020? Has she been retested since 2019 to check if the dose is sufficient for her? 
3. Could you please add the actual results of her bloodwork to the case history? There are boxes for the ACTH, insulin, glucose and thyroid (if any) results. If you have done other bloodwork, that can be added to your case history folder (not the actual case history document), either as a pdf or document, or if you need to scan it, you can add it to your photo album. 

I couldn't see any information about her hoof problems in the case history either, but you can add comments in the 'Comments' section at the end of the case history, which makes it easier for people as then everything is in the same place. Once you get your photos uploaded, as Lavinia said, we can comment further on the hoof problems. There are links in the 'Trim' section below on getting the best hoof photos/xrays and creating an album.

Here is our welcome message--there are many useful links as well, just click on the blue text. You can also search the Messages and the Files for more information on specific topics. 

Hello 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 



--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Saraphina insulin test results

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Cindy,

Unfortunately, carving her already thin soles likely made her more painful as now there is even less protection between the ground and her coffin bones :(  If she IS brewing an abscess, using NSAIDs will only slow down the process and make it last longer. Horses with ulcers tend to want to eat only hay as grains of any kind make them feel worse. As long as she's eating her hay, I'd hold off on the grain for now and keep giving the Gastrogard. You could try giving her smaller, more frequent hay meals to see if she will et more overall.

Giving NSAIDs while on Gastrogard has been found to not only not help, it made the overall situation worse:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/261812?p=,,,20,0,0,0::Created,,bute+and+gastrogard,20,2,0,80902265

Although this study was done using bute, it seems to warrant caution with all NSAIDs.

When she was trimmed, were her heels lowered? Was there anything taken off the bottom of the rest of the walls? Were the frogs trimmed? Were her back feet trimmed?

I would want to see the trimmer back to do more adjustments in two weeks rather than waiting 4 weeks.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Bailey chronic RF lameness

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Karen,

Did you see your welcome message from last week?  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/266899

Your case history folder link is https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bailey%20Case%20History%20KW and it would be helpful if you could add this to your signature along with your year of joining.  (The information on how to do this is in your welcome message). 

As Lavinia already noted there's no information in the Case History about the lameness issue.  If you could start a photo album and post pictures of Bailey and her feet as well as any x-rays you have it would really help us.  Information on how to do that is here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help




Re: Mayonnaise for dosing

Sherry Morse
 

Just want to add my 2 cents that out of everything you could use as a carrier I would think using mayo would be one of the messier options. 



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