Date   

Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

I have two choices for labs.  Idexx or University of Guelph Animal Lab.  I know Dr. Kellon prefers the University of Guelph  lab so that is where I have been sending it but it is very slow and I have found out talking to one of their techs, that they do not even do the metabolic testing.  They send it out once a month to an outside lab, so that is why it takes so long. So I will use Idexx for Friday's testing. which is faster and cheaper.
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

For some reason the April 19, 2021 results do not show up as everyone tells me this but they are in the case history.  There are actual physical indications of hoof abscesses.  Changes in medial and lateral hoof pulses are evident at times.  Painful on left hoof or right hoof or both.  I see changes in the frog/heel areas where an abscess has exited. He has been perfectly sound and in dressage training  and doing extremely well until hoof abscesses showed up over 2 weeks ago.  I was wondering if it is a coincidence that abscesses and the seasonal rise are together or are they separate.  Does he need more Prascend for example?  My vet is coming on Friday to collect blood samples for metabolic testing plus xrays.  The samples will be sent to Idexx for a quick response.  I will update his case history at that time. Hopefully a solution for Scooter can be found. Thanks for your assistance!
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Ground Flax Seed vs. Chia Seeds

Candice Piraino
 
Edited

Hi Kathy!

Welcome to the group! Both chia and flax are fabulous in regards to the Omega 3:6 ratio! Some horses may not tolerate Flax, so Chia would be a great substitute. If you use the search button you can see a lot of posts about flax seed. Flax is also more affordable usually. You can see some differences in the numbers here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Omega%203%20and%20Omega%206/FlaxBOSSpeasCHIAhemp.pdf

Also, You can see some more important numbers broken down within this post here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/iron_in_chia_seeds/84782815?p=,,,50,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,50,2,0,84782815


The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History

Shark's Photo Album 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Ground Flax Seed vs. Chia Seeds

Kathy Steele
 

Is there a reason to feed ground flax seeds over chia seeds for an EMS mini/pony (she does have laminitis)? I have been researching the two and they seem very similar. I am currently feeding chia seeds, but am willing to switch if flax is better.
 
Thanks in advance!
 
Kathy Steele in Menifee, CA 2021


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

I have the vet coming Friday to take blood samples for metabolic testing and x-rays of his front feet. Scooter has been in this same large (33 horse)boarding barn for many years.  The hay changes frequently.  I have been matching his hay amount to his amount of exercise as best as I.  If this were my barn I would weigh everything but it is not and I have to eyeball the amounts of hay.  Up until this current episode of hoof abscesses he was in full training as he was an advanced level dressage horse and doing extremely well so I was going to enter him in dressage class in September.  The extra 10 lbs is muscle.  This was the best he has ever looked.He receives 1 qt of beet pulp and 1 qt of ordinary timothy hay cubes, soaked twice a day.  The soaked beet pulp and timothy cubes are the carrier for his supplements which get mixed in. When I get the results from Scooter's metabolic testing, I will update his case history.
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Iron in Chia Seeds

Sherry Morse
 

Kathleen,

Was this the one chart you were referring to before? https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Omega%203%20and%20Omega%206/FlaxBOSSpeasCHIAhemp.pdf  I know it's a bit old but can't imagine the basic numbers have changed.




Re: Need Advice On Evaluating Relevante's Numbers-Hay Analysis

Lynn
 

Thanks Sherry and Kirsten!

The other thing I'm going to do now that the second cutting has been cut/baled is test it as well. My hay balancer who lives in my area said there was a substantial difference in sugar levels between their first and second cuttings. In the meantime we'll keep soaking while I continue to get my ducks in a row. Thanks again so much for the help/advice.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

That is why I am switching to Idexx lab to get faster results so a quicker solution for Scooter can be found. The recent past there may be a relationship for Scooter with abscesses and PPID or there may not be. The current abscesses are smallish (I hope) judging from the exits they leave in his frogs and heels.
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Rhonda,

I forget how it works.The labs will tell you. But they may 'send it out' to Guelph. Don't know.
But in any case I have never had to wait as long as you describe,here in Eastern Ontario,whether dealing with IDEXX, Guelph, or Cornell.
It might be worth getting to the bottom of the delay.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Rhonda,

"Results were all in the normal range."

I found 2019 insulin numbers in another folder. They were actually not within range,at 384pmol/L . So his elevated insulin has been going on for a while.

When you describe his hoof issues as abscesses,how were you determining that diagnosis? Were there actual physical indications of abscesses? Or maybe abscesses were thought to be the cause since his lab numbers were thought to be  "normal",so elevated  insulin couldn't be the issue? Maybe?
I'd like to learn from this,too,because I can't relate to your descriptions of the abscesses coming and going ,with such regularity. I've had numerous abscesses here over the years,but none has presented in this way. Maybe I've been missing signs that I should have paid more attention to.
Unless there are actual physical indications of abscesses (and/or rads) I would be more likely to think of laminitis as the culprit,and in Scooter's case,I'd be suspicious of the high insulin....and high ACTH,as well.
Will be interested in hearing if I'm totally off base here....in which case I retract everything . :-)

 
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Iron in Chia Seeds

 

Here are the figures for a 2 ounce dose of flax vs. chia:

                                          Flax        Chia

Calcium (g)                       0.14        0.35

Phosphorus (g)                 0.36        0.53

Magnesium (mg)              0.22        0.00

Potassium (g)                   0.46        0.09

Sodium (g)                        0.02        0.01

Iron (mg)                           3.2          0.0

Zinc (mg)                           2.4          2.0

Copper (mg)                      0.6          0.2

Manganese (mg)               1.4          1.2
Total n-3 (g)                     12.8          3.3
Total n-6 (g)                       9.8          3.2


--

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rhonda,

Based on test results and symptoms I would concentrate on getting Scooter's insulin under better control.  We do not have any current trim pictures and the only x-ray in your file showed an excessively long toe which may or may not have been addressed by now.  Abscessing is a sign of something wrong in the hoof - whether it's a trim imbalance, a metabolic insult or an injury.  You can absolutely see gas pockets in the hoof on x-ray (https://horse-canada.com/magazine/hoof-care/dealing-hoof-abscesses/ may be a good refresher on that). 

Since Scooter was recently trimmed now would be a good time to take and post hoof pictures so we can see what's going on with his feet. As a reminder, information on how to take good hoof pictures as well as making sure you get useful x-rays is in the Wiki here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help

In December you said Scooter weighed 1183 and we all said that based on pictures you posted that was a good weight for him (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/78921383#258818).  If we take 1183 to be his actual ideal weight he should be eating no more than 23.66lbs a day and that includes hay plus concentrates. Free choice hay (with an unknown ESC+starch number) plus 2 quarts of timothy cubes (which also have an unknown ESC+starch content) could be pushing up his insulin levels and there's a good chance the current hoof issues are related to the elevated insulin as well. 

You also recently mentioned that his weight has increased 10lbs (to 1193) recently.  To me that's a red flag that he needs a reduction in intake, particularly when coupled with the elevated insulin number and foot soreness. 

It would be a great help to us if you could update his case history so it's current as the last update was done in June of last year.



Re: Need Advice On Evaluating Relevante's Numbers-Hay Analysis

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

You can substitute the cubes for all of his hay consumption if you wish, at the ratio Sherry provided.  But I assumed half would give you a big enough drop in sugar to bring the average ESC+starch well under 10%.  Not sure how you can mix them all up so the meal reflects that average, unless you do dampen the cubes until they fall apart then mix them in to his usual hay.

Don't forget to reduce his minerals accordingly.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

 

Hi Rhonda,
So it appears that there is a relationship between the hoof issues and PPID?  The reason I suggested increasing the dose now and testing later is that the dose increase will become less effective as you move into the fall rise.  If you can get your results back in a day or two, as I can, it will matter less.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Iron in Chia Seeds

 

Hi Christee,

Out of curiosity, I looked up the nutrient data for chia and there is not a quantifiable amount of iron in 100 grams of chia seed. I've pasted some graphs below comparing trace minerals, major minerals and the fatty acid breakdown in flax vs. chia. If they don't show up, I'll provide the numbers if anyone is interested. These are negligible amounts of minerals. The reason for supplementing is to replace the essential fatty acids lost when fresh forage is dried. These seeds provide a substantial dose of n-3 and n-6 fatty acids. The combined n-3, n-6 is 22.6 grams for flax, 6.6 grams for chia with a 4:1 ratio for flax, 3:1 for chia. For perspective, the human dose of n-3 fatty acids ranges from 200-1000 mg/day (0.2 - 1 gram). Granted, humans benefit more from the long-chain fatty acids found in algae (and then fish) and some may argue that the horse would see the same benefit and should be supplemented with fish oil. The reasoning behind this is that humans are poor converters of the form found in seeds and plants, like flaxseed, chia, walnuts (ALA), so it is best to just cut to the chase and consume the long-chain forms (EPA, DHA). This is demonstrably true for humans, but there is limited evidence to conclude this poor conversion rate translates to the horse. Horses have a novel gene transcript for fatty acid conversion from the short-chain precursor (ALA) to long-chain forms (EPA, DHA). It stands to reason that this novel transcript is likely an evolutionary adaptation for more efficient conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA, since they evolved to eat grass and we didn't.

There's your science tidbit for today! Hope the graphs come through because there is no better way to start the day than with a few graphs!


--

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

I have been using University of Guelph animal lab but I think from now on I will switch to Idexx.  I actually found their phone number and talked with a technician.  Their method is to save up the metabolic testing and send it out once a month to an outside lab! (I wonder if they send it to Idexx!)  So I was paying a premium for nothing. The vet is coming on Friday to collect blood samples and x-rays.  Based on results I may increase his Prascend dosage from 1 mg to 1.5 mg?
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

The hoof abscesses started in July 2019 while he was at a show competing.  Took him home and called my vet.  I had her do a metabolic panel.  Results were all in the normal range.  The hoof abscesses continued off and on for months.  I called her again about the hoof problems.  Her only comment was"Oh". The hoof abscesses finally went away in November.  I was worked on getting him fit and he was doing well but by February he had hoof abscesses off and on again.  Vet was no help again. Due to Covid all boarding barns in Ontario were forced into lockdown(no owners allowed).  My Farrier came to do a trim and told me my horse had laminitis episodes.  I called the vet service and again to come and x-ray his feet and the diagnosis was founder, seedy toe, white line disease, hypothyroid, IR, EMS, PPID.  Knowing what I learned from ECIR, I would have put him on Prascend in July 2019.  But I didn't know anything and neither did my vet service!  The hoof abscesses stopped when he was put on 1 mg Prascend in late April 2020.  I think I need to up his dose of Prascend to 1.5 mg?  And then test him again in November?
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

The farrier gave him his usual trim July 29.  I had chatted with him and asked him to let me know if he found anything of note in his feet.  Nothing was found.  Abscesses do not show up on x-rays.  However my vet is coming this Friday to collect blood sample for metabolic testing. I will ask her to x-ray his front feet.  The hoof abscesses have not improved but neither have they got worse.
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Iron in Chia Seeds

SUMEROD@...
 

I currently use TC Golden Flax and my horse has had loose stools since being on it and have not been able to get regular flax locally.  The site I was on has both, and were listing all the benefits of Chia including the how it can be like a psyllium to aid in removal of sand and my hay is off ground but still falls on ground and gets eaten.  Site also listed that good for laminitis and inflammation.  The iron threw up a flag as well as knowing flax is preferred.
--
Christee P - CT 2021


Re: Need Advice On Evaluating Relevante's Numbers-Hay Analysis

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lynn,

You substitute the hay cubes at a 3lbs of cubes for 4lbs of hay ratio.  Most people wet them down to 'fluff them up' which takes less than 5 minutes. If they're haying a bunch of horses and they start by putting water in the cubes then hay everybody else by the time they give the cubes to Relevante they'll be fine. (That's what we do at my farm).


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