Date   

Ground Flax Seed vs. Chia Seeds

Kathy Steele
 

Is there a reason to feed ground flax seeds over chia seeds for an EMS mini/pony (she does have laminitis)? I have been researching the two and they seem very similar. I am currently feeding chia seeds, but am willing to switch if flax is better.
 
Thanks in advance!
 
Kathy Steele in Menifee, CA 2021


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

I have the vet coming Friday to take blood samples for metabolic testing and x-rays of his front feet. Scooter has been in this same large (33 horse)boarding barn for many years.  The hay changes frequently.  I have been matching his hay amount to his amount of exercise as best as I.  If this were my barn I would weigh everything but it is not and I have to eyeball the amounts of hay.  Up until this current episode of hoof abscesses he was in full training as he was an advanced level dressage horse and doing extremely well so I was going to enter him in dressage class in September.  The extra 10 lbs is muscle.  This was the best he has ever looked.He receives 1 qt of beet pulp and 1 qt of ordinary timothy hay cubes, soaked twice a day.  The soaked beet pulp and timothy cubes are the carrier for his supplements which get mixed in. When I get the results from Scooter's metabolic testing, I will update his case history.
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Iron in Chia Seeds

Sherry Morse
 

Kathleen,

Was this the one chart you were referring to before? https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Omega%203%20and%20Omega%206/FlaxBOSSpeasCHIAhemp.pdf  I know it's a bit old but can't imagine the basic numbers have changed.




Re: Need Advice On Evaluating Relevante's Numbers-Hay Analysis

Lynn
 

Thanks Sherry and Kirsten!

The other thing I'm going to do now that the second cutting has been cut/baled is test it as well. My hay balancer who lives in my area said there was a substantial difference in sugar levels between their first and second cuttings. In the meantime we'll keep soaking while I continue to get my ducks in a row. Thanks again so much for the help/advice.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

That is why I am switching to Idexx lab to get faster results so a quicker solution for Scooter can be found. The recent past there may be a relationship for Scooter with abscesses and PPID or there may not be. The current abscesses are smallish (I hope) judging from the exits they leave in his frogs and heels.
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Rhonda,

I forget how it works.The labs will tell you. But they may 'send it out' to Guelph. Don't know.
But in any case I have never had to wait as long as you describe,here in Eastern Ontario,whether dealing with IDEXX, Guelph, or Cornell.
It might be worth getting to the bottom of the delay.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Rhonda,

"Results were all in the normal range."

I found 2019 insulin numbers in another folder. They were actually not within range,at 384pmol/L . So his elevated insulin has been going on for a while.

When you describe his hoof issues as abscesses,how were you determining that diagnosis? Were there actual physical indications of abscesses? Or maybe abscesses were thought to be the cause since his lab numbers were thought to be  "normal",so elevated  insulin couldn't be the issue? Maybe?
I'd like to learn from this,too,because I can't relate to your descriptions of the abscesses coming and going ,with such regularity. I've had numerous abscesses here over the years,but none has presented in this way. Maybe I've been missing signs that I should have paid more attention to.
Unless there are actual physical indications of abscesses (and/or rads) I would be more likely to think of laminitis as the culprit,and in Scooter's case,I'd be suspicious of the high insulin....and high ACTH,as well.
Will be interested in hearing if I'm totally off base here....in which case I retract everything . :-)

 
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Iron in Chia Seeds

 

Here are the figures for a 2 ounce dose of flax vs. chia:

                                          Flax        Chia

Calcium (g)                       0.14        0.35

Phosphorus (g)                 0.36        0.53

Magnesium (mg)              0.22        0.00

Potassium (g)                   0.46        0.09

Sodium (g)                        0.02        0.01

Iron (mg)                           3.2          0.0

Zinc (mg)                           2.4          2.0

Copper (mg)                      0.6          0.2

Manganese (mg)               1.4          1.2
Total n-3 (g)                     12.8          3.3
Total n-6 (g)                       9.8          3.2


--

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rhonda,

Based on test results and symptoms I would concentrate on getting Scooter's insulin under better control.  We do not have any current trim pictures and the only x-ray in your file showed an excessively long toe which may or may not have been addressed by now.  Abscessing is a sign of something wrong in the hoof - whether it's a trim imbalance, a metabolic insult or an injury.  You can absolutely see gas pockets in the hoof on x-ray (https://horse-canada.com/magazine/hoof-care/dealing-hoof-abscesses/ may be a good refresher on that). 

Since Scooter was recently trimmed now would be a good time to take and post hoof pictures so we can see what's going on with his feet. As a reminder, information on how to take good hoof pictures as well as making sure you get useful x-rays is in the Wiki here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help

In December you said Scooter weighed 1183 and we all said that based on pictures you posted that was a good weight for him (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/78921383#258818).  If we take 1183 to be his actual ideal weight he should be eating no more than 23.66lbs a day and that includes hay plus concentrates. Free choice hay (with an unknown ESC+starch number) plus 2 quarts of timothy cubes (which also have an unknown ESC+starch content) could be pushing up his insulin levels and there's a good chance the current hoof issues are related to the elevated insulin as well. 

You also recently mentioned that his weight has increased 10lbs (to 1193) recently.  To me that's a red flag that he needs a reduction in intake, particularly when coupled with the elevated insulin number and foot soreness. 

It would be a great help to us if you could update his case history so it's current as the last update was done in June of last year.



Re: Need Advice On Evaluating Relevante's Numbers-Hay Analysis

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

You can substitute the cubes for all of his hay consumption if you wish, at the ratio Sherry provided.  But I assumed half would give you a big enough drop in sugar to bring the average ESC+starch well under 10%.  Not sure how you can mix them all up so the meal reflects that average, unless you do dampen the cubes until they fall apart then mix them in to his usual hay.

Don't forget to reduce his minerals accordingly.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

 

Hi Rhonda,
So it appears that there is a relationship between the hoof issues and PPID?  The reason I suggested increasing the dose now and testing later is that the dose increase will become less effective as you move into the fall rise.  If you can get your results back in a day or two, as I can, it will matter less.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Iron in Chia Seeds

 

Hi Christee,

Out of curiosity, I looked up the nutrient data for chia and there is not a quantifiable amount of iron in 100 grams of chia seed. I've pasted some graphs below comparing trace minerals, major minerals and the fatty acid breakdown in flax vs. chia. If they don't show up, I'll provide the numbers if anyone is interested. These are negligible amounts of minerals. The reason for supplementing is to replace the essential fatty acids lost when fresh forage is dried. These seeds provide a substantial dose of n-3 and n-6 fatty acids. The combined n-3, n-6 is 22.6 grams for flax, 6.6 grams for chia with a 4:1 ratio for flax, 3:1 for chia. For perspective, the human dose of n-3 fatty acids ranges from 200-1000 mg/day (0.2 - 1 gram). Granted, humans benefit more from the long-chain fatty acids found in algae (and then fish) and some may argue that the horse would see the same benefit and should be supplemented with fish oil. The reasoning behind this is that humans are poor converters of the form found in seeds and plants, like flaxseed, chia, walnuts (ALA), so it is best to just cut to the chase and consume the long-chain forms (EPA, DHA). This is demonstrably true for humans, but there is limited evidence to conclude this poor conversion rate translates to the horse. Horses have a novel gene transcript for fatty acid conversion from the short-chain precursor (ALA) to long-chain forms (EPA, DHA). It stands to reason that this novel transcript is likely an evolutionary adaptation for more efficient conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA, since they evolved to eat grass and we didn't.

There's your science tidbit for today! Hope the graphs come through because there is no better way to start the day than with a few graphs!


--

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

I have been using University of Guelph animal lab but I think from now on I will switch to Idexx.  I actually found their phone number and talked with a technician.  Their method is to save up the metabolic testing and send it out once a month to an outside lab! (I wonder if they send it to Idexx!)  So I was paying a premium for nothing. The vet is coming on Friday to collect blood samples and x-rays.  Based on results I may increase his Prascend dosage from 1 mg to 1.5 mg?
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

The hoof abscesses started in July 2019 while he was at a show competing.  Took him home and called my vet.  I had her do a metabolic panel.  Results were all in the normal range.  The hoof abscesses continued off and on for months.  I called her again about the hoof problems.  Her only comment was"Oh". The hoof abscesses finally went away in November.  I was worked on getting him fit and he was doing well but by February he had hoof abscesses off and on again.  Vet was no help again. Due to Covid all boarding barns in Ontario were forced into lockdown(no owners allowed).  My Farrier came to do a trim and told me my horse had laminitis episodes.  I called the vet service and again to come and x-ray his feet and the diagnosis was founder, seedy toe, white line disease, hypothyroid, IR, EMS, PPID.  Knowing what I learned from ECIR, I would have put him on Prascend in July 2019.  But I didn't know anything and neither did my vet service!  The hoof abscesses stopped when he was put on 1 mg Prascend in late April 2020.  I think I need to up his dose of Prascend to 1.5 mg?  And then test him again in November?
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Hoof abscesses in front hooves

Rhonda Turley
 

The farrier gave him his usual trim July 29.  I had chatted with him and asked him to let me know if he found anything of note in his feet.  Nothing was found.  Abscesses do not show up on x-rays.  However my vet is coming this Friday to collect blood sample for metabolic testing. I will ask her to x-ray his front feet.  The hoof abscesses have not improved but neither have they got worse.
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159


Re: Iron in Chia Seeds

SUMEROD@...
 

I currently use TC Golden Flax and my horse has had loose stools since being on it and have not been able to get regular flax locally.  The site I was on has both, and were listing all the benefits of Chia including the how it can be like a psyllium to aid in removal of sand and my hay is off ground but still falls on ground and gets eaten.  Site also listed that good for laminitis and inflammation.  The iron threw up a flag as well as knowing flax is preferred.
--
Christee P - CT 2021


Re: Need Advice On Evaluating Relevante's Numbers-Hay Analysis

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lynn,

You substitute the hay cubes at a 3lbs of cubes for 4lbs of hay ratio.  Most people wet them down to 'fluff them up' which takes less than 5 minutes. If they're haying a bunch of horses and they start by putting water in the cubes then hay everybody else by the time they give the cubes to Relevante they'll be fine. (That's what we do at my farm).



Re: Hay analysis , pre-purchase NFC and DM- what do they mean?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Donna,

I wouldn't buy this hay.  At that level of moisture it's all but guaranteed to mold. Protein is borderline low, ESC+starch too high.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Best Friend Grazing Muzzle

Marianne @ Austin
 

Ok now I see your dilemma. I have not tried the GG with a hay net though I have watched my horse stab at the net it before I take off the muzzle.  Good to know that I could run into the same issue you have had if I go the muzzle/hay route. Never know where the road will take us-
Best to you in your search-
Marianne
--
Marianne 2009 Texas

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marianne%20and%20Shadow


Re: Need Advice On Evaluating Relevante's Numbers-Hay Analysis

Lynn
 

My niece took me to the farm today and I got the boy all set up with a hay bag and upright cooler on wheels for hay soaking. When my vet comes the 25th I'll have him do another insulin test to see where we are.  I'm already looking at alternatives because I'm 99 percent sure it's the hay driving the insulin up. I won't be able to source my own hay because there is literally no room to put it. So Kirsten I was really interested in your idea to substitute Ontario Timothy Balance Cubes for half his hay consumption. I can order 50 lb. bags but how do I figure out how much of the cubes to give him. Do those have to be soaked or can we feed them dry?  I posted another shot of his crest and a couple side body shots in his album. That was about all I could manage on crutches.  He still has his hollows above his eyes and the chiropractor feels his topline loss and slight belly is largely due to lack of fitness - all the downtime he's had.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018 
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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