Date   

Prascend, possible false-positive tests, and re-testing

spiritwinddesertarabians@...
 

ECIR Newbie here, learning and forming a plan for moving forward.

Due to triple-digit heat, I have not traveled to retest my mare since 2020. Maybe a blessing!? Both tests in 2019 and 2020 were done in late June, and early July (in Idaho) at a very nice professional equine hospital 100+ miles away, in a metro area, and over interstate travel. Likely a stressful event for the mare. She is fairly calm about new experiences, but otherwise a complete homebody. She has not ever displayed PPID or IR symptoms that I can recall or confirm. PPID Testing, so far, was done as a problem-solving step in our attempt to resolve reproductive issues.

Now, in mid-August (and still in triple digits - ugh), I am concerned for possible Seasonal Rise impact on the test. Honestly, I'm not sure if the first two tests weren't influenced by Seasonal Rise or stress. I'm not saying she does not have PPID, but I don't know that I should feel confident in those first two tests given the big picture? I'm considering waiting until December/January to do the next ACTH test. And, given the previous dubious circumstances, I assume I should do the baseline and TRH draws.

In the meanwhile, I am hoping to do the following tests soon, using my local veterinarian and following the ECIR guidelines: Insulin/Glucose, Iron Overload, Lyme Disease, and possibly an overall Blood Chemistry Panel - not sure of details to request for this. I am also going to explore testing my hay. 
I would truly appreciate feedback on my thoughts and plan so far!!

Last but not least, Sariah, my lovely black mare, has mostly resigned herself (finally) to the daily syringing of the 1mg Prascend dissolved in a few drops of water, however...I would like to know, IF...we have indeed had a false-positive situation, am I doing her harm by continuing the Prascend? It seems I should leave her on it for the next 3-4 months until the next ACTH testing for obvious reasons, but, her well-being is foremost. 
Thoughts, guidance please!

Thanks Again,
Bev & Sariah (PPID?) from Idaho, 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Files


Re: Conflicting information on peripheral loading

Anna Kulginova
 

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 01:42 PM, Maxine McArthur wrote:
Hi Anna
Following up on Kirsten’s comment, I would add that I think it’s important to ask your horse about whatever ‘method’ you use. Not just her soundness level, but her stance, her demeanour, whatever her particular ‘happiness meter’ shows. Is she improving even if slowly, or is she seeming less comfortable as time passes? You know her best. If the horse says one thing and the human expert says the opposite, the human is wrong. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

Thank you.
That is really sound advice!
We have had a bumpy barefoot road.
My farrier got burnt out and was doing an increasingly bad job on my pony for the past year. 
After that we went barefoot with our barefoot trimmer in march and Diva has been really great, she was moving so well, seemed to be happy when the shoes first came off.
But she has been footy in her turn out on and off and then had her first laminitis episode. 
I just don't have enough data to decide if she was doing better as a whole since she was steadily OK when in shoes, improved a lot for a while when barefoot but then got laminitis.
Time heals all wound I guess, right now she is improving a tiny, tiny bit each day but I am kind of dreading the next and coming trims!
 
--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Re: Conflicting information on peripheral loading

Anna Kulginova
 

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 11:53 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:
Hi Anna,

You are going to have opposing viewpoints, unfortunately, and I suggest following the one that makes the most sense to you.  If something feels wrong to you, trust yourself.  Your laminitis trimmer/farrier might be an expert but his methods are not what we have seen here at ECIR to work long-term.  Frequent trims, removing walls from load-bearing and supporting from below with pads and boots is what we think will give your horse their best chance at recovery.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album
Thank you for this input. 
The more I am learning and reading the more I feel that removing walls from load bearing and taking care of the temporary discomfort that brings is what is going to help long term.
I would love to be able to do her trims myself since then I could get instant feedback from my horse on what is working and not and also be able to take a little at a time, but I am just not knowledgeable enough.
Right now the plan is to let the laminitis farrier trim her next Friday since they are already booked and then go back to my usual trimmer as soon as absolutely possible after that. 
It is not going to be easy to actually relay this to the laminitis farrier though, but I will have to persevere. Hopefully they say that Diva is looking OK enough for the usual trimmer to take over.

--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Re: Conflicting information on peripheral loading

Anna Kulginova
 

On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 03:36 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
NSC could never be higher than WSC.  The real issue though is the fractions that influence insulin.  That is ESC and starch.  WSC could be an issue in hind gut laminitis (not metabolic) and that's possible in your northern areas with something like ryegrass but even so it's never been proven to occur.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Thank you for this info! I will really make sure to get a hold of an ESC and starch analysis for the next haylage lot.
 --
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Re: Need to help a friend in crisis. How can I add a case history for her? Can a moderator please assist with this quesiton?

Sherry Morse
 

If the Equi-VM balances the hay I would suggest stopping the Equinety and P45 and replace both of those with the balancer that you know is correct for that hay rather than using things that may not be correct.  Again, it's been developed by Dr. Kellon she has never said it's not safe for an IR horse that I can recall. 




Re: Diva laminitis, help and hoof evaluation

Anna Kulginova
 

Thank you, these casts are supposed to be able to handle that the hoof expands so I really hope that this is not the case for her.
She has improved a bit since I wrote the post.
--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Re: Diva laminitis, help and hoof evaluation

Anna Kulginova
 

I did a rim cast with cast material that you moisten and then it hardens, this is not the type of cast you can rasp though and it isn't rock hard but flexes a bit and lets the foot expand.
I did not use DIM or padding under the heel, that would probably have been a good idea in hind thought but it was complex enough to put the cast on for me as it was :).
She has improved since I wrote the last post and is OK walking straight and up- and downhill now. I found out that she gets lame and hobbles when the ground is on a sideways slant and that is still true but it was very much more pronounced before.

--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Re: surgery

Carolyn Marshall
 


Re: Inadequate sweating

Rita Chavez
 

Hi KC, we must have posted about sweating at the same time. Have you tried the JHerb? I’m just really curious to know if other horses with anhydrosis could benefit from it. It seems to be working on mine! 




--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: Sweating!

Rita Chavez
 

Thanks, Sherry! I’m just SO thankful to this group. 




--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: Need to help a friend in crisis. How can I add a case history for her? Can a moderator please assist with this quesiton?

Jessica Gunderson
 

We are weaning the thyro-L. We were at 3 scoops and now we are at 1 scoop. 
Mary and I use the same hay and she did have it balanced. Equi-VM is the match for this hay. I have it, but I am not feeding it because my vet was worried it may be triggering for Khan because of the kelp, alfalfa and corn.
--
Jessica and Khan
N.D., 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20and%20Khan


Re: I know it's not much but....

 

Thank you Sherry.....it truly was very hard to have a horse not allowed to be a horse....Now that I am weighing her hay out and seeing how fast she eats it I am horrified at the amount she potentially could have consumed even in the nibble net I had on the round bale. It is still hard going down every 3hrs and seeing her call out to me as soon as I am in her sights...especially since she is totally alone now until the 30yr old comes in for the night. The morning is the easiest because after she finishes her first meal over that first hour we start our riding routine which brings us back in time for her 2nd meal 3 hrs later. The rest of the day by the time I hang her next net she acts like she is dying. The muzzle was supposed to come today but it is delayed til Monday. Hopefully that will help slow her down!

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.


--
Nancy and Akira
3/20/2018  Burkesville KY

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Akira


Re: Need to help a friend in crisis. How can I add a case history for her? Can a moderator please assist with this quesiton?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jess,

We would be interested in knowing who you contacted who said he's seeing 3 year olds with PPID as that's very unusual. Not unheard of but definitely unusual, especially to see more than one at a time.

If she is below what you consider her ideal weight you may want to consider weaning off of the Thyro-L which should be done over a period of several weeks (we recommend a 6 week taper to allow the horse's thyroid to start working again. You can read more about that here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/265797)

If you could post pictures of her current condition that would be helpful.  Adding pictures of the current trim would allow you to get help on how she should be trimmed going forward.  To do that please see https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help.  If your farrier is open to helping Khan he should be receptive to having somebody with experience with PPID/IR horses give tips on trimming.  We have many members who have started trimming their own horses feet either because they can't find a farrier who will work with them or the farrier can not come often enough to keep ahead of the trim.  It sounds like you've already tried to get him to bring her toes back - which has not been done - so you may need to consider finding someone who is more willing to work with you. 

Are you feeding the Equi-VM now?  It is safe for a PPID horse but ideally you would want to have your minerals balanced to your hay.  You can contact one of the people on the balancing list: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/HAY%20BALANCING-1.pdf for assistance with that.




Re: Need to help a friend in crisis. How can I add a case history for her? Can a moderator please assist with this quesiton?

Jessica Gunderson
 

The hay has been tested and it is safe, we are soaking to be on the safe side. Khan will not eat flax or beet pulp, we tried for about 2 weeks and the vet felt it was more important to get her thyro-l and insulinwise rather than continue to have her refuse to eat beet pulp. We tried peppermint, equi-sweet, banana flavoring I think was one and the only way she would touch it was with Stabul-1 so we started giving her the Stabul-1 at that point.

This hay has already been balanced to Equi-VM but my vet is very much against Khan using Equi-VM because it has corn, alfalfa and kelp in it.  Is there another balancer with this profile that does not have these ingredients?

The trim is a absolutely a huge problem, has been frustrating for myself and my vet and looking at her rear hooves I wonder if the trim was problematic even prior to laminitis.  The problem is she gets better and then we trim and she crashes, its like we cannot touch her feet without having 3 bad weeks after.  Has anyone else experienced this? Unfortunately we are in an area where the skill level Khan needs from a podiatrist/farrier is not easy to come by.  I have looked at the ECIR farrier list and non of them are close.  Does anyone have any recommendations for the upper midwest or someone who travels? I have contacted a couple of equine podiatrists and while I think they sent me good markups they do not travel and my farrier did not trim according to their markups which was to really take back the toe and flatten the palmar angle. This may be my biggest concern is finding to realign through trimming without crashing each time.
--
Jessica and Khan
N.D., 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20and%20Khan


Re: Need to help a friend in crisis. How can I add a case history for her? Can a moderator please assist with this quesiton?

Jessica Gunderson
 

She had a girth measurement of 75 and is now 68 so approximate 1185 pounds to 915 pounds, her ideal weight is probably just a little higher than she is currently. Right now her ribs are clearly visible, spine protrudes when arching back/laying down, neck has become slightly u-necked, and inadequate musculature. Zero crest at this point.

The hay is not estimated it is weighed.

She is still on Thyro-L and InsulinWise.

Response to 1. I don't have the information you are looking for but I don't think it was a stim test - the vets do not consider that safe for Khan.
Response to 2. Too young, just laminitis stress.
Response to 3. non-fasting.
Response to 4. Correct, she was on Purina WellSolve W/C for 2ish months but not since the first week in April.
--
Jessica and Khan
N.D., 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20and%20Khan


Re: Sweating!

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rita,

It could be a combination of the J-herb and the fact that his IR is now under control. Always hard to say for sure.




Re: Inadequate sweating

Sherry Morse
 

Hi KC,

It doesn't really matter what the cause, it does need to be treated.  Beer may or may not work (Guiness is the preferred one and it's related to the B vitamins). I would encourage you to do a search in the messages: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/search?p=%2C%2C%2C20%2C0%2C0%2C0&q=anhydrosis is just a first blow at it.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/236255 - is a specific message on this topic.




Re: I know it's not much but....

Frances C
 

So happy to know you are BACK IN THE SADDLE. Always great to hear good news
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Need to help a friend in crisis. How can I add a case history for her? Can a moderator please assist with this quesiton?

Jessica Gunderson
 

Re: ACTH, the test that is currently out is at Cornell and I did request my vet overnight it with expedited processing so hopefully I will have that back early next week. I used an interim vet because my vet has had limited availability and I never received the actual lab work so I cannot confirm if that was Cornell or not.  Both vets here felt it is just stress from laminitis however I contacted an equine podiatrist who sees a higher volume of laminitis cases then vets here and he said they are seeing three year old's coming in with PPID and in temperature controlled barns such as where I am coat changes may be less obvious.

Re: soaked hay, we have been soaking the hay since April 1st or 2nd.

Re: Metformin, it was syringed, 
--
Jessica and Khan
N.D., 2021


Sweating!

Rita Chavez
 

Ok, ya’ll, 2 years ago my horse first presented as suffering from anhydrosis. He would pant so hard just standing around it hurt to watch. I treated him with shade/fans and frequently hosing down. I also tried quite a few products specifically for sweating. No luck with any of those and fortunately we got through to the cooler days and nights of fall. 

Last week Thursday I started him on the Jiaogulan powder from Mad Barn to help with recovery of his laminitis. We have been roasting hot & humid here in SC. And my horse is dripping sweat!! Is this an unexpected benefit of Jiaogulan herb?? His gums and tongue are showing much pinker than before, so according to the directions it’s working on his circulation. If so, this is awesome! He’s not even panting like last summer. 

Rita




--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson

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