Date   

Re: Please help me with my beloved mare #photo

dr.kellylear@...
 

I have uploaded images of my mares foot. Here is the link: 

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=267371

 I noticed she has bruising along her coronary band and that she has a white bulge at the junction of the hog wall and coronet band. Is this something to be concerned about? 

--

 

Kelly Lear in Texas 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Saddie

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=267371


Re: Finn and Elliott new bloodwork/invokana

TERRI JENNINGS
 

My vet is concerned that since Finn and Elliott's ACTH values weren't out of "normal" range that we may be giving them too much prascend and she is concerned about side-effects of "too much prascend".   She is also suggesting that we go back to their previous dosages after the seasonal rise which she believes is over in November.  Is their research to back up my decision to up their dosages for the seasonal rise?  Should I return to the previous dosage once the seasonal rise ends?  Also, she has asked if Finn's Invokana dosage can be raised or if he is on the highest dosage for his weight.  

Thanks,
Terri
--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Re: Durasole and Remission

 

Welcome to the group Vickey!
I can't offer you the type of advice that you need for Kodak but we have members and moderators with an extensive knowledge about IR and Laminitis. Remission will offer some ingredients that help with hoof growth. I suggest you feed iodized table salt per our emergency diet because horses do need iodine. You have him booted which is good. He must be kept away from ALL grass, weeds, etc. Our members and moderators need you to get a case history in place with all of his health history and include radiographs and hoof photos. Below is a link to how to take GOOD hoof photos. Please follow the "HOW-TO" directions carefully. You may need to have help taking the photos but they are really important.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help

I have attached our new member "Guidance" document below. All the words in blue are links to additional pages, documents, etc. If you get familiar with doing searches of the messages and files you will find it much easier to get information. We have SEARCH buttons/boxes on every page. Use them! We have an excellent WIKI (see WIKI in column on left side of this MAIN home page). The Wiki is the tool for all the "How do I do????" questions. When you get stumped over creating a fold or uploading a document refer back to the Wiki.

Best of Luck for Kodak. I think he must be a lucky horse.

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 




--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album Deceased


Re: Saraphina new rads, help Lavinia

CYNDI CARLSON
 

I’m wondering about a product mentioned by my vet that might help Saraphina with her ulcer problems.The company is Arenus and the product is Assure guard.I have been giving her Gastrogard for 28 days and now 14 more days on half a tube, but I haven’t seen much improvement and the vet thinks this would help cover more GI issues.
--
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021


Durasole and Remission

Vickey M. Hollingsworth
 

Hi group! I'm new here and have a badly foundered horse. He completely penetrated the soles on both fronts. I'm a barefoot trimmer and his owner gave him to me.

Can I get input on Durasole sole hardener? I've been applying 2x a day for 4 days and he seems much more comfortable! I even apply it right over the perforation areas. Before I was doing this the soles felt like mush and I could flex them. 

I took him off Buteless because it has yucca and I didn't realize that can make IR worse. He's on the emergency diet, pending hay analysis. Remission and Apple-A-Day electrolyte. Boots and thick pads. 24/7 turnout in huge dirt lot, no grass. 

He moves REALLY well, even gaits and canters. But dang....his x-rays are terrifying. 

Please let me know if Durasole and Remission are okay to use. He tested mildly IR and analyzing his vet records from before I owned him, it looks like he suffered a few degrees of rotation but nothing catastrophic and then the vet came and gave him a ton of vaccines all at once and his coffin bones shot right out the bottoms of his feet... :(  The owner called me out to see if I could help him after this happened and she ended up just giving him to me and I have had him about one month now.


--
Vickey H. (and Kodak, Appalachian Singlefoot gelding, 6 yr old)
Western Tennessee
August, 2021


Re: Please help me with my beloved mare #photo

dr.kellylear@...
 

She was at 1 tablet all spring and then went up to 1.5 tab end of July when laminitis was confirmed. I will increase her by another 0.25 tabs tomorrow morning. I have purchased APF and waiting for it to arrive. I will get some pics of her hoof now too. 
--

 

Kelly Lear in Texas 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Saddie

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=267371


Re: Testing hay pellets

 

Joy,
For most bagged feeds feeds doing an analysis is a bit of a crap shoot. There is no way of know that the contents of any given bag is the same as the more bags of the same mix. MFGR's make statements about sugars, starch, NSC, etc but in reality they most likely do spot sampling  of "some" lots of feed. Pelleted hay is likely to have come from numerous fields and locations. I would think you would be better off buying hay to use as the bulk of your horse's feed if at all possible.

Stabul One is rigorously tested and can be used as a complete feed. The Triple Crown Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes are another safe hay based feed (cubes). I suggest that if you find a hay (bales or pellets)  that you want to test you could start with having just ESC (sugars) levels and starch levels tested. If those levels are safe for your horse then have the rest of the #603 Trainer package run on the feed. If the ESC and or Starch are too high you haven't wasted too much money. 

The LMF Low NSC Complete is actually a feed on our "Safe Feed" list. 
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album Deceased


Re: Please help me with my beloved mare #photo

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Kelly,

Yes the radiographs are in your album but we would like to see pictures of the actual current trim to advise on where that can be improved. Since we don't know what dosage of pergolide you started at or how quickly it was increased I'd recommend titrating up slowly (by 1/4 of a mg every 3 - 4 days) until you reach your new target dose.  You may also want to purchase some APF to use as you titrate up in case the inappetence you're seeing is due to the veil effect.





Re: Please help me with my beloved mare #photo

dr.kellylear@...
 

Hello, 
she is on fluids because she wasn’t drinking well when she was increased on pergolide. Yes, the appliances were removed from her feet and she is now in cloud stratus boots. And yes I meant 1.5% of ideal body weight 

I will contact the barefoot trimmer tomorrow to see when I can get her out. 

I have uploaded an album with her radiographs and put the link below my signature. Is it not showing up? 
--

 

Kelly Lear in Texas 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Saddie

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=267371


Re: Please help me with my beloved mare #photo

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Kelly,

Why is your mare on fluids?  Is she still wearing the appliances on her feet?  Did you mean to say she's only getting 1% of her body weight in hay?  That is not enough - we recommend either 1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal weight WHICHEVER amount is GREATER and that includes hay and any supplements (such as rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp). 

In our experience there is a way to fix this but the first piece of the puzzle is removing the cause of the problem - that's why we emphasize tightening up the diet and making sure the trim is optimized.  While you're making progress with the diet, the trim still appears to be an issue.

Getting a case history completed and pictures of Saddie's feet following the directions in the Wiki (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1482#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help) will go a long way in helping us help you.

In the meantime - keep breathing!



Re: skipping a dose of prascend

celestinefarm
 

Frances, I"ve had the rare occasion where a dose was forgotten and a day was skipped and I have early dosed to accommodate a time change.  Both have turned out fine for Tipperary, do what you feel most comfortable doing.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Please help me with my beloved mare #photo

dr.kellylear@...
 

I think I got it fixed. I just wanted to get some opinions because this is all so confusing. My mare is hospitalized on fluids right now. The surgeon reviewed her radiographs and agrees that the ddft tenotomy is not in her best interest especially since she has so much sole still. His biggest concern is the amount of inflammation in the dorsal hoof wall. He measured it and said it is about 31mm. He is concerned with that much inflammation the coffin bone isn’t getting much blood flow. He said there is really no way to fix this and despite all our efforts she might not get better. I really scared and not sure what I should do. 

She is on the emergency diet with hour soaked Timothy (waiting to get analysis results back) magnesium, vitamin E and flax seed. She is only getting 10% of her body weight. 

She is also on pergolide which has been increased. 

is there anything else I can be doing for my mare. I am so scared too much damage has been done and she will never get better. 


--

 

Kelly Lear in Texas 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Saddie

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=267371


Re: Saraphina new rads, help Lavinia

CYNDI CARLSON
 

Hi Sherry,
yes I am administering it orally and rinsing her mouth out.
--
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021


skipping a dose of prascend

Frances C
 

Normal time to administer Prascend is 5 pm. Now I have to go off at 9 am tomorrow (Tues) and can't return until 5 pm on Wed. Should I administer as usual tonite at 5pm and tomorrow at 9 am or just skip the dose and resume regular time at 5pm on Wed.??? No one else to do this for me.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Testing

Chris Hanson
 

Thank you…this is really helpful.
Chris

--
Chris H in CA 2021


Re: Supplements for Griffin

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Tina,

At 720lbs if that's his ideal weight and he can maintain it (ie: not gain weight) he can eat 2% of that weight which is 14.4lbs TOTAL (hay and any concentrates) per day.  It sounds like you're right about there with the one feeding per day of concentrates so I would not up that at all.




Re: Supplements for Griffin

Tina Bachmann
 

Thanks Kirsten. This evening I gave him 3/4 lb Dryweight of soaked TCBC. 1/4 cup of BP rsr, with salt and a 1/4 cup of ground flax seed. He seemed to love it. Ate it all. Do I feed this amount just once a day ? I am currently feeding 6 lbs of soaked hay twice a day. And taking him off of TC 30% balance, TC safe starch and Standlee orchard grass compressed bale. He currently is approx 720 lbs and I think looks good. His ribs are showing. I see vet and farrier on Wednesday and will see what they think about his weight and what the trim will do. I am hoping he can start some light exercise. Thanks for all of you input and helpful ideas.


--
Tina Bachmann in VA 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tina%20and%20Griffin


Re: Saraphina new rads, help Lavinia

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Cyndi,

Not sure how you are administering the metformin but do make sure if you're syringing that you're rinsing her mouth out well afterwards as it can cause mouth ulcers which can be painful. 




Re: Testing

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Chris,

That feeding is fine. Yes, may as well retest insulin too.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Saraphina new rads, help Lavinia

CYNDI CARLSON
 

Hi Cindy,
Saraphina is doing Ok.She will not eat the Phyto quench with devils claw but she is eating just devils claw from Uckele . She is still sore enough that it’s hard to pick her feet up to get photos. I am having a hard time getting her to eat anytime but dry hay, no soaked hay cubes of any kind, no Stabul 1. Sometimes she will eat hay with water sprayed on it. She is on 2mg of Prascend ,metformin and I am mixing flax,vitamin E. Magnesium, trace minerals and giving them orally. She has gained some weight.My concern is she’s still dealing with ulcers, I just finished 28 days of Gastrogard now giving her half a tube for 14 days.
--
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021

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