Date   

Re: Hay analysis--which numbers to use

Lorna Cane
 

And here we recommend ESC and Starch.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Hoffman's BalanceIR Ration

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Laura,

Do you have an ingredients list (as opposed to the analysis provided by company )?
This comment on their site makes me a tad suspicious , "Senior horses or ponies that need a little extra nourishment ", just because products directed at senior horses, often contain ingredients not recommended for our compromised horses.
Colour me cynical.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Hay analysis--which numbers to use

Julie Davie
 

It sounds like my vet is doing it the old way.  I just was googling to see what the NFC number included and found this info on Iowa State U web site (https://www.extension.iastate.edu/equine/how-are-sugars-and-starch-measured-hay):

Non Fiber Carbohydrates (NFC) - This is a calculated (as opposed to an analyzed or measured value) estimate of all carbohydrates not in neutral detergent fiber (NDF). NFC = 100 - crude protein% - NDF% - ash% - crude fat%. Prior to the routine availability of WSC, ESC and starch analyses, it was commonly reported as an estimate of feed carbohydrates. However, as a calculated value, it will carry all of the errors of the other measurements. Use WSC, ESC and starch when available to evaluate carbohydrate levels in the diet. 
--
Julie D OR 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20and%20Porter


Re: Hoffman's BalanceIR Ration question for Sherry

Laura H
 

Mad Barn HAS said that their products were made based on a variety of samples of Ontario hay. I find picky eaters are fine with the Omneity Premix but you won't have good luck with Amino Trace. I have an entire barn on Omneity.
--
Laura Heit - Ontario 2021


Re: Testing hay pellets

Joy V
 

Thank you Kim!  What a great idea!  I really appreciate this and all the other suggestions.

This is the most amazing group.  SO GRATEFUL to you all.

Joy

--
Joy and Willie (EC/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Re: Hoffman's BalanceIR Ration

Laura H
 

My mare would unfortunately not eat Omneity or Amino Trace. The next best "low iron" option was Kentucky Performance Product's Microphase and she's a huge fan :) Basically smells like alfalfa pellets! It's missing a few of the good things that Mad Barn products include (amino acids) but it's a good balancer and I can supplement those extra things myself.

The other options that were suggested to me but after further analysis were either NOT balanced, or provided too much iron, was Zenamin, Hoffman's, or any of the Nutrequin products. Herbs for Horses also has a decent one called Vitaboost but it's not palatable.
--
Laura Heit - Ontario 2021


Re: Please help me with my beloved mare #photo

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Kelly,

You have her insulin and ACTH in good control. Feet definitely look fixable. I think your last hurdle is to get her off NSAIDs and on something to actually  improve her perfusion.

BTW, she may be drinking less because the hay is soaked and she's not eating as much of it. Judging by her insulin, you'll probably find these hays are safe.

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Saddie New rads, help Lavinia

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

She has a thickened horn lamellar zone but little to no rotation.   Toes can come back a bit, especially the right.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Saddie’s Case, Dr. Kellon please review

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I'd be happy to, Kelly, but can't open her history in that format. You do want to get her off all NSAIDs and on LaminOx.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Hoffman's BalanceIR Ration

Lorna Cane
 

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 07:26 AM, <lamarleau@...> wrote:
There is nothing for IR horses in Canada
Francine,what do you mean by this ? I hope others of us here will chime in with products they have found here.
There are many of us here from Canada, who have managed to find a solution.
I hope it's not out of line for me to ask you to list everything you have tried. 
Sometimes our horses will find something appealing,which we never would have guessed.
 
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Hoffman's BalanceIR Ration question for Sherry

Lorna Cane
 

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 05:39 AM, Jennifer Green wrote:
The hay is from eastern Canada, so it might balance better with the Canadian products.
Hi Jennifer,

Don't worry about this. The hay test results will determine what is needed to balance it. I think you'll find that it matters not whether said products are from Canada or the US., as long as they provide what the balancing calculations call for.
Madbarn is, indeed, a good (Canadian) company ,though.

 
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Hoffman's BalanceIR Ration

lamarleau@...
 

Hi
I saw the other post from Jennifer/Sherry on this.

Magic is on Omneity from Madbarn with timothy pellets as a carrier but he will no longer eat it.  I have tried different flavouring and he leaves it in the bucket even through the night.  He went off his grain so we treated him for ulcer (omeprazole) and I am on the 4th week of treatment with no improvement.

I already tried timothy balance, soy hull pellets, any kind of flavouring you can imagine. I have a full variety.  So far fenugreek is a winner, but still not enough for him. I cooked 3 recipes that I took here and he doesn't like anything, but all my other horses are going crazy for my cookies.

I am trying to find something a little tastier to help (as a carrier).  If I give him a bit of Purina Simplici-T fibra (which he cannot have), he is happy. Can't take a chance.

There is nothing for IR horses in Canada and I tried to find a way to get Stabul1, but there is just no way and I can't cross the border yet as it's still closed. This mini is going to kill me, I swear.


Thank you
--
Francine & Magic in Quebec Nov 2020
Was a member 10 yrs ago with Shamy


Re: Testing hay pellets

Kim Leitch
 

Joy,
I use a plastic squeeze ketchup bottle, like you see on tables in cheap restaurants, with a long nozzle. I mix the salt and hot water in it, then stick the nozzle through the net to squirt the salt water on the hay.
--
Kim 10-2014

Clover, SC

Dually: IR; Grits and Bella: PPID, IR; and Eeyore (deceased, but not PPID related)

Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Grits%20-%20Eeyore%20-%20Dually

Photo album Grits https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1314

Photo album Eeyore https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6586&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Photo album Dually https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9046&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Photo album Bella https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=64978




Re: Hoffman's BalanceIR Ration question for Sherry

Jennifer Green
 

Thanks Maxine,

Just got new hay yesterday. I’m going to collect samples today for a new hay test and then have the new hay balanced. I’m on the tail end of the CA Trace Plus so with all the new info, it could be a good tune to make changes. My main concern is that Fergus can be picky and making a change that doesn’t taste as good or tastes different might be a challenge.  Do picky eaters tend to like the Madbarn products?

The last hay we had needed maganese added, so Madbarn it might be a good option. The hay is from eastern Canada, so it might balance better with the Canadian products.

Fergus has not been footy at all, but I really do just want to get it right in a way that he’s willing to eat it. If rice bran has the potential to cause problems, I’d rather try to move to something less risky. If this pony ever founders, I’ll at least be able to say I tried my very very best.
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Re: Hoffman's BalanceIR Ration question for Sherry

Nancy C
 

HI All

The issue with Rice Bran is the Omega 3 and 6 ratios. Understanding how much is being fed is critical. As  pointed out, a few ounces of CA trace vs multiple kg of a given feed will make a big difference, As it happens we have a handy guide to help see how omegas differ in various products and given amounts.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Omega%203%20and%20Omega%206/FlaxBOSSpeasCHIAhemp.pdf

Based on previous conversations here, if you contact CA Trace, I am 99.99% certain that they will share how much Rice Bran is in their serving amount so you can calculate.

Make sure you are feeding flax as recommended.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021

Targeted release of recordings of the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference -- end of August.


Re: Hay recommendations

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Kelly,

Let's back up a step.  She was originally on Teff and eating that, correct?  Is there a reason you did not just soak that hay as she was already used to it? Do you still have access to that hay?  If so, you may want to try soaking that and see if she will eat it. 

Has she been started on APF yet? 

If metformin is being given via syringe is her mouth being rinsed out after administration?  You can read more about the way to properly administer metformin to avoid oral ulcers here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/4%20Insulin%20Resistance/Metformin

Lack of food would cause insulin to drop, not rise - it's one of the reasons that horses that have been fasted will have lower insulin readings and why Saddie's 24.61 result may seem normal, but it's actually not.  A horse that's been fasted for testing should have a level below 10. 

If she's still on NSAIDs at this point long term use of them can cause ulcers which lead to a decrease in appetite that's something to consider as well.  Even pain by itself can cause a decrease in appetite so be aware of that as well.




Hay recommendations

dr.kellylear@...
 

My mare is a very picky eater and always have been. She is not a fan of soaked hay at all. I have been soaking the Timothy and she will nibble
on It but she is definitely not eating 2% of her body weight. In fact she would rather eat her manure. I have access to Bermuda grass hay and orchard grass hay too and I sent samples out for analysis for the Timothy, Bermuda and orchard but haven’t gotten those back yet. 

My question is should I keep with the timothy and let her just nibble at it or should I try a different soaked hay like the orchard or Bermuda. I am scared to switch hay on her and cause any changes in the microbes in her intestines. But I am also concerned if she isn’t eating enough she will have insulin rises due to the lack of food. 

Please let me know what everyone thinks is best. 

--

 

Kelly Lear in Texas 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Saddie

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=267371


Re: Hoffman's BalanceIR Ration question for Sherry

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Jennifer
Not Sherry, but if Fergus is doing well on the Cal Trace Plus (no footiness etc), I would not worry too much about the rice bran in it. If he were a very sensitive IR horse, maybe I would remove it from the diet, but the recommended dose (for a 1000 lb horse) is 4 ounces (112g), and although they do not state the amount of rice bran, the supplement also contains yeast, so even if the rice bran is half of the dose, the actual amount is quite small. The Hoffmans feed that Sherry cautioned against is supposed to be fed in kilogram amounts, which is a different case to the Cal Trace Plus and definitely would not be a good idea to feed to an IR horse. 
However, we do suggest targeted supplementation of minerals if at all possible, as then you can make sure he is getting the minerals deficient in his hay and nothing else that might be unnecessary (such as the rice bran). There are some other  generic mineral supplements in the group Files that are safe for IR horses, so you could switch to one of those if you are concerned--the Cal Trace Plus is also on that list. Acceptable Ration Balancers.pdf (groups.io)
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Saddie’s Case, Dr. Kellon please review

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Kelly,

A couple of things that would help us with regard to the case history:

1 - can you save it as a PDF and load that into your folder so everyone can view it?  Not everybody can open a Pages file (I have to run them through cloud convert to read them).
2 - it would be helpful if you could add the following info:

Was the testing done today done fasting or non-fasting?  Was the blood drawn at home or at the vet? Is she still on fluids?

If she's laying down she's resting her feet so don't force her to get up.  Do make sure she has hay and water nearby so she can eat and drink without getting up if needed.  She's in boots and pads at this point, correct?




Re: Hoffman's BalanceIR Ration question for Sherry

Jennifer Green
 

Ive learned rice bran should be avoided but the other night I looked at my Cal Trace Plus (which I thought was ok to feed) and it has rice bran in it! I’m feeling concerned and confused. 
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album

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