Date   

Re: Mixing hay

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Yes, you can do 50/50. All depends on how much you need to lower the overall ESC+starch total.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Mixing hay

Lamourah Perron
 

Hi Lavinia
Thanks for this info! The starch is low, below 1 percent on all of my hay.
I feed in hay nets,  so I can mix the 2 kinds in a big garbage can and the net it.
 Would 50/50 work? 
--
Lamourah Perron 
Queens Bay British Columbia 
Hoof pictures Sept 2021


Re: Mixing hay

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lamourah,

Yes, you can mix two hays and average the ESC+starch numbers as long as it's done at each meal. You can't feed one hay at one time and the other one at another time. The other thing you need to do is make sure the horse is actually eating both hays, not picking thru and only eating the (usually) higher sugar one. The only way to actually reduce the sugar (not starch, as it won't lower with soaking) is to soak.

Iron at 267ppm is higher than needed but is a number that can be balanced to. Part of the higher iron may be on the surface of the hay, which can be lowered by shaking out the hay before feeding it. To know how much that may help, you'd need to test some of it after shaking. Surface iron will also rinse off (not soak) but that means you will need to rinse all of it before feeding then retest after the rinsing to see what the new result would be.

Although it's a pain, hay can be soaked in freezing temperatures if needed - many of us have done it at one time or another. Horses generally don't mind haysicles.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Mixing hay

Lamourah Perron
 

Hello all
I bought some grass hay that I have not had analyzed yes,  will soon . Last year, this hay came in at 11.3 percent sugar, I did not buy it. 
This year there is a hay shortage  so I have to get hay from a few sources. 
I have a hay that is low sugar (6.7) and protein but high iron (267  ppm). Another one that is more balanced from last year that is low sugar.
I am wondering if I can mix the higher sugar one with a lower sugar one to reduce the sugar amount? Or, is the only way to reduce the sugar is to soak it.
We are heading into winter soon, with freezing temperatures and I cannot soak it then.
I can always save it till spring and soak it, if that is my only option.

Thank you 
--
Lamourah Perron 
Queens Bay British Columbia 
Hoof pictures Sept 2021


New Country Organics Beet Pulp Pellets?

Candice Piraino
 

Hi Everyone!

Does anyone have any chemical analysis on New Country Organics Beet Pulp Pellets? I have been asked about this specifically, and I cannot say if it is safe or not due to no lab testing on it that I have seen.

Thanks!
--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History

Shark's Photo Album 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: Magni - Cloud boots and hoof alignment

Candice Piraino
 

HI Kathy!

Have you seen the new Sneakers from Easy Care? They might actually be a better fit, if you are still looking for a therapy boot. It has a better breakover than the Clouds, and seems more durable. Sometimes horses have more torque with their footfalls, and twist their boots. Fit is very important as Cass has stated above. It is best to fit your horse after a fresh trim. I just wanted to throw out another option for you to consider.
--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History

Shark's Photo Album 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: Pabatsa's ACTH jumped up to 98.4 -- Dr. Kellon help with CP

Candice Piraino
 

HI Laura,

Where are you getting your compounded pergolide from? Has there been any changes that you are aware of that is a controllable variable, such as hay source ? I am trying to troubleshoot why your horse's ACTH is going up and down even with the increased pergolide. 
--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History

Shark's Photo Album 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: Hay Analysis

 

Hi, Karen.
We use the As Sampled column to determine the nutrients in hay. To determine the safety of hay for horses with EMS, combine ESC + Starch, making sure the total is less than 10% (and less for some equines). The total for this hay is 3.5%, ultra low. 

Some details. Have you fed any of this hay? Does is pass the taste test? It looks to be very mature, with aNDF is 62.9. As a rule, when screening hay, I look for ADF and NDF in the range of 30-60 max. This is a very rough measure of the palatability and digestibility of the hay. If Montana Rose is used to Bermuda hay, it might be fine, at the high end of  acceptable. Combined with the very low ESC, though, the hay may not be palatable. I'd make sure my horse will eat it.

Another detail. We don't evaluate safe feeds using NSC. NSC is a measure that includes non-digestible carbohydrates. We check for carbohydrates that can affect insulin. Those are ESC and Starch. For a complete explanation, see the link to Dr Kellon's Horse Sense: https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2021/09/10/nsc-fructans-and-ems-again/ 

It looks like the analysis you ordered from Equi-Analytical was the 601 Equi-Tech. That test uses faster and cheaper lab methods, near infrared and plasma spectroscopy, for the energy portion of the analysis -- results above the minerals starting with Calcium. Wet Chemistry (603 Trainer) is a more accurate and safer lab method. It takes longer and costs more. For this hay, the inaccuracy probably won't be a big problem because ESC is so low. However, in the future, especially where the hay's carbohydrates are unknown, be sure to test carbs using wet chemistry. The difference can be critical for a laminitic horse.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Coronary Bandy Dystrophy and Cushings

Candice Piraino
 

HI Rose,

Welcome to the group! 

Please request the actual lab results from your vet. Its always good to have for your records anyways :) Please complete a case history at your earliest so we can provide more detailed help for you and your horse. It helps us get a bigger picture and more into the weeds! You can upload the lab results as well once you create the case history. We also love to see current xrays and photos of feet, which can also be uploaded. Feeding our recommended diet will only help your horse, even if it turns out he is not IR after review of the particulars from your lab report. But since you are having foot issues, I would definitely begin the Emergency diet and start from there at a minimum. Keep your California Trace Plus and ensure your base carrier is ECIR approved (ESC + starch = <10%).

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History

Shark's Photo Album 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: Coronary Bandy Dystrophy and Cushings

 

Hi Rose,
Welcome to the ECIR group!  I knew nothing about CBD so I did some reading.  It definitely seems like something that might be worse with uncontrolled PPID, just as your experience with the fall flares tells you.  I’ll be interested in following how he does on pergolide.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Pabatsa's ACTH jumped up to 98.4 -- Dr. Kellon help with CP

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Hi Dr. Kellon/Nancy/Group,

My vet just sent me Pabatsa's latest blood results from Cornell and I need help on increasing his CP. I will have her send in a Rx for CP if you can suggest what increment.

Thank you for your help!

May 11, 2021:
Glucose 99
Insulin 18.80
ACTH 21.3
--------------------------
Sept 14, 2021
Glucose 99
Insulin 19.66
ACTH 98.4
--
Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )


Re: Coronary Bandy Dystrophy and Cushings

hollander8282@...
 

Hi,

I did not get any actual numbers and was just told they were normal.  After reading more on here I figured I was going to have to ask for the actual results.  I do know it was not a fasting test.  This was not the first time he has been tested, but I guess the test are not always reliable.  
--
Rose Michele in Bucks County, PA
Joined in 2021


Hay Analysis

Karen Turner
 

I just added a hay analysis on the same hay that I had another company analyze....very different results!  I tend to go with the Equi-Analytical report being more correct and since I did sample about 12-14 bales, it is also a more accurate representation of the same hay.  There are two headings with two columns each. One is As Sampled % and g/lb. There is also a Dry Matter column with the same subheadings, the values of those are nearly identical to the As Sampled Column.  There is also Ca, P, Mg, K, Na, Fe, Zn, Cu, Mn, and Mo values. If I am reading the report correctly, Protein is 11.9%, Starch 1.5%, and ESC 2.0.  So, at 3.5% NSC, it should be suitable for a PPID horse who is also IR, correct?

If so, then how do I feed it with her Timothy Cubes? Half and half by weight?
--
Karen M and Montana Rose in TX 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Montana

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=267866


Re: Coronary Bandy Dystrophy and Cushings

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rose,

You'll get a full welcome letter shortly but did you get the actual numbers back from your vet for insulin, glucose and ACTH or just a 'don't worry, it's normal' message? Were the insulin and glucose tests done fasting or non-fasting?  What test did yo have done to determine if he was PPID?

The fact that he has been having hoof issues would lead me to wonder if he's been PPID longer than you've known than he is, but that's neither here nor there - all you can do is manage him moving forward.




Coronary Bandy Dystrophy and Cushings

hollander8282@...
 

My horse has been battling coronary band dystrophy (cbd) since 2014 and is on 500mg of prednisolone mon, wed, fri to keep at bay.  He just had his annual vet visit and he tested positive for Cushing, insulin and glucose are both normal.  He was last tested in 2018.  He is a 19 yo Dutch warmblood gelding, living in Pennsylvania and gets 1 lb of buckeye grow n win balancer, Timothy/orchard grass hay, cal trace plus, 5000 iu smartpak smart & simple vitamin e and cosequin with msn, currently turned out at night and stalled during the day and now on prascend.  

The reason I requested the test be done as there was a significant event line (his hooves are all lines from the cbd, but these are more significant) that correlated with the switch to night turnout and another about the same distance apart, no other ppid symptoms. The vet does not think the event line are sugar related, but more dew/wetness related.  Other than the cbd causing the soft mushy sometime infected heels and frogs he has not had any other lameness, he is tender on rocks.  The cbd tends to flare up in beginning of August almost every year and clears up mostly by January.  

My vet also told me there was no need to change diet as he is not IR and the prascend is all required.  From what I have read on the ecir website I don’t think that is the case?…Also the test was done the end of August, which it says not to do, but I think that is just for the potential of a false negative?  Since it came positive that is not an issue, is that correct?

Thank you in advance for any advice. 
--
Rose Michele in Bucks County, PA
Joined in 2021


Re: Cupcake on Invokana/Newbie

Jennifer Murphy
 

Carla, Flea is a pet so his only work is making me happy.  He's been on Invokana since January and we still had some ups and downs since then.  I've been battling his laminitis and insulin flare ups for about four years now, and being directed to this group is what finally turned things around.

--
Jennifer in NH
2020

CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea

Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Re: Cupcake on Invokana/Newbie

 

Hi, Carla.  My horse has been getting Invokana since February 2021. All the details are in Cayuse's case history. If you search messages for Invokana, you will find posts by members who have been treating their horses with Invokana since 2019.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Now: Member Recommended Professionals Lists - 09/13/2021 #cal-notice

Nancy C
 
Edited

The joys of finding dead links.  Thank you Deborah and Sara for your comments.

My recollections is that the vet list was set up by a now-departed volunteer, and it was never sufficiently populated, hence no spread sheet.

Sara, I will have a look at the FB group you mention. While Pete's group is archived, it is still searchable and provides a glimpse into how various trimmers approach things. The list here is to provide hoof professional recommendations that may be able to trim the equine in question. Does the new(er) FB group have a list of members who are open to new and perhaps difficult business?

Deborah, the ECIR group would suggest and prefer that vet recommendations go privately, so if you'd like to post here that it is okay to have members contact you privately with recs, please open a new topic to do so.

You may have seen these lists:
https://www.paequinedirectory.com/veterinarians
https://www.newhorse.com/page/equinevet/b.2003.g.38.html?page=1


--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021

Recordings of the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference released to attendees 09.03.21.
Veterinary Professional CE certification hours submitted to AAVSB Race 09.08.21


Re: Cupcake on Invokana/Newbie

Carla Anderson Peters
 

Hello Cass,
I sincerely appreciate your response! I will work on that.  How long have you been using Invokana?
Thank you!!
Carla
--
Carla

 

December 2013, WI

Cupcake and Gunnar's Case Histories 

Cupcake's Photos

Gunnar's Photos 

Ω



Re: Cupcake on Invokana/Newbie

Carla Anderson Peters
 

Jennifer,
Thank you for replying, and putting my mind at ease!!  Is your little one back into some form of work?  How long have you been using Invokana?
Thank you!!

--
Carla

 

December 2013, WI

Cupcake and Gunnar's Case Histories 

Cupcake's Photos

Gunnar's Photos 

Ω


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