Re: How to Store Pergolide Once Blister Foil is opened?
Sherry Morse
I do the same as Maxine, just fold the tin foil over and then put it in the fridge if it's overnight. I haven't had any that have been stored longer than that at this point.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Re: New member My Mare Chicy diagnosed with Founder 9/15/2021 at just less than 3 months in foal
Sherry Morse
Hello Janet, Welcome to the group! I am so very sorry that you're going through this. While we can be a resource for you in general terms of dealing with laminitis it's difficult to say if your mare's issues are related to a metabolic cause or something else completely (toxicity due to the fetus dying being the most likely cause). I will include our very detailed welcome message here but as far as your technical questions: To post directly on the group go to this link: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topics - that will allow you to read all group messages and if you want to type an email out you would click on the New Topic section on the left hand menu. To share pictures you need to join the Case History sub-group and then go to the photos section and create an album named "Janet and xxx". You would then open that folder and upload pictures directly there. We do not allow pictures to be sent via email. With that here's the welcome letter so get comfortable, it's a lot to read.
The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time. Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message
with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any
trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose. The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs. EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause. There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Re: How to Store Pergolide Once Blister Foil is opened?
Suzanne, I just put the remainder of the pill back in the foil and fold it over, then put it in a sealed container in the door of the refrigerator. As you are titrating up, it is only for a few days that you'll need to do this. It shouldn't affect the efficacy of the medication very much. I use a pill cutter if I need 1/4, or you can dissolve 1/2 in, say, 10cc of water, and give 5cc each day. Personally, I prefer to use the pill cutter, but you do need a good sharp one so that you don't waste any crumbs of the pill. If you use the dissolve method, you'd keep the remainder in the fridge until the next day.
-- Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID) Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
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New member My Mare Chicy diagnosed with Founder 9/15/2021 at just less than 3 months in foal
Hello Everyone,
Glad to have found this group through my friend Kim. This is my first experience with founder. Chicy was a 16 year old maiden mare who was bred on June 26 via AI and had a viable foal at 28 days. All was going great then suddenly last week she began acting like she was painful all over and limping on her left front. Several horses in the area are being diagnosed with abscesses and I thought perhaps that was the case. I only allow her on grass 2 hours a day so founder was not even on my mind. My vet and other local vets in this area are short handed and I asked my vet about what I was seeing (they actually AI'd Chicy) and without seeing her they said it was probably hormones from being in foal and to give her a gram of bute and set up an appointment for the following week which was the earliest they could see her. . The bute seemed to help her out but I did not want to continue after giving 1 gram more than one time as I did not want to cover up any symptoms at her appointment. To be honest I thought she had an abscess and I was wrapping her foot with a poultice pad which has worked well for me in the past. When I went to the vet appointment Wednesday they could see she was in a lot of pain and could barely move (which I had explained when I requested the appointment). Ex rays showed rotation of both front feet with left being the worse (but not through the sole). She is standing square but having difficulty walking. Vet suggested it was not a good idea to have a mare in foal with founder and sent me home as he had and emergency C section for another client. I had a ton of questions and Kim who is in this group made a post on my behalf and Dr Kellon recommended an ultra sound to determine if still a viable foal. We had the ultra sound today and the determination was made the foal is no longer viable. They could feel the foal but no heartbeat. They went in 4 different times to be sure. She was given a shot of lutalyce to help abort the foal. They are coming up with a plan for next week to support her needs regarding the loss of the foal and making sure she is clean and open (may involve more ultra sounds, more lutalyce, lavage and oxytosis). Next week blood will be pulled from Chicy here at the barn to sent via vet for a metabolic panel to Cornell to check for IR and Cushings. She has not been drinking water as usual and was getting dehydrated and the vet gave her 5 liters fluids IV today which seemed to help her out. She is eating and pooping good. Not peeing but maybe due to not drinking. I noticed today she seemed to have drank several gallons this afternoon so hope that is behind us. With Kim's yesterday assistance I now have switched her fescue hay and Triple Crown Lite to orchard grass soaked and Triple Crown Natural Timothy cubes along with some vitamins and minerals. We have also backed up her toes and put 3 layers of Styrofoam pads on the front feet. She is confined to the barn with deep shavings. My farrier will be here in the next couple of days to back up her toes a little more and change out the bottom 2 pads. I will take measurments at that time and order some therapy boots. So that is it. The last 2 days have been a crash course in how to take care of a foundered mare. We are beyond sad to lose the baby and would like more answers on why the baby did not survive and if that could have caused the founder. I am sure I will have a ton more of questions as time goes on. At this moment we are in shell shock. Just want my girl to recover and be pain free. I can say since having the Styrofoam pads and toes backed up she seems more comfortable on her feet but her body is very sore all over and she seems a little stiff. Once I get her moving she seems to improve a bit. She did stand in one place in her stall most of yesterday, last night and this morning before going to the vet. This afternoon she is munching hay in a different area of the barn which tells me she her feet do not hurt as much.. I do not have email on my phone where my pictures are. Is there a way i can post directly with out email? And a way to post pictures without using email? All the photos and files I find seem to be for possible admin documentation. Would like to show ex rays of feet and a picture of my beautiful amazing girl. Thank you for listening and hoping for some good information to help us move forward and put this behind us. -- Janet Chester SC 09/17/2021
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How to Store Pergolide Once Blister Foil is opened?
Hi again,
Any ideas out there how to store the pill once blister is opened? Pill has to be handled 3 times to get 1/4 of the pill. Trying not to lessen its efficacy/potency. -- Suzanne and Pilgrim Joined March 2019 Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Suzanne%20and%20Pilgrim https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90935
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Re: Updates
Deb Walker
By the way. Not sure how it changed, but the owner's name under the photo album is wrong. Not sure how to change it to me.
-- Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619
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Updates
Deb Walker
I updated Scotty's case history (just tweaked a few items to make sure it is accurate.) Basic change is I have added Jiagoluan back at 2 Tbsp. day as of yesterday. The reason I stopped it was that his feet were growing too quickly, and since I couldn't get my (then) farrier to come at reasonably shorter invervals, his hoof was just growing too much between trims.
So, now we are back to an old/new farrier who is doing an excellent job, and highly recommended by my vet. After she did the first 2 or 3 trims, Scotty was able to go totally bootless for the first time since 2017. He could walk on pavement, grass, etc. with no issues. As we continued to work slowly at backing up his toe and removing no sole, he would get sore. I would boot him for a few days and practice boots on/boots off. If he showed any discomfort the boots went right back on. He spent most of July bootless with no discomfort. After his trim on July 29, he was unable to transition back to barefoot and remained booted 24/7. On August 31 I discussed with his farrier the *bump* for lack of a better word on his sole (both fronts, but more prominent and painful on the right.) He could walk bootless in his shaving filled barn or on grass, but as soon as that *bump* touched pavement he couldn't do it. My farrier could see what I was talking about, and reluctantly rasped off just a tiny bit of sole where the bump was. He seemed immediately more comfortable, but still booted. We decided we really needed to see what his coffin bone was doing and where it was, so I had laterals on his fronts done 9/13. My farrier will be back out 9/22 (just a 3 week interval this time.) As a sidenote-there was no soft or squishy area on his soles and he didn't react to pressing on hit with hands/fingers. The laterals are added to Scotty's photo album. As you can see, he has lost sole. It would be impossible to guess whether that was from the very tiny bit rasped off, or whether it was from almost a month of not wearing boots in July. His hoof continually grows down from the coronet band looking perfect, and then after a few weeks, his toe starts going forward. I think you can see that from the x-rays, which are 2 weeks post trim. The goal going forward will be to keep that toe from getting too long and hopefully with the addition of J he will grow more sole quickly. Because we are in the seasonal rise, I am not doing testing at this time, and evaluating by sight, condition, demeanor, etc. If (bless his soul) Scotty makes it through another winter, we will test in the spring for ACTH and Insulin. I'd appreciate any thoughts, but I bow to my farrier to make any changes/decisions. I've lost 2 farriers who could not tolerate me asking questions...which were always asked in the most polite way. Sometimes I think men feel challenged if you ask a question, when all you really want is for them to explain to you what and why., and a question does not constitute unhappiness with their work. My new farrier (who did Scotty's feet years ago in a boarding barn - 2004/2005) told me to ask away...that is the only way you learn, and she is aware of the situation I had. Still, what one sees in a picture is not the same as holding that hoof in your hand. But if there are thoughts I should keep in the back of my mind...I'd appreciate it. Thank you as always. -- Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619
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Saraphina blood work,help Dr. Kellon
Hi,
Saraphina had blood work done September 2nd. vet gave her 10cc B-12 and put her on 7 tablets of Sucralfate twice a day.Both seemed to help for a bit ,she has been on Gastrogard since August 15th, haven’t seen much change.she is currently on 1/2 a tube of Gastrogard and I am now giving her 100X Equine Gut X. The company believes in their product for colonic ulcers.Shes eating close to 10 lbs dry hay per feeding( twice a day) My old vet just did a ACTH test it came back at 14. Saraphina will not eat any devils claw or supplements. I give her Metformin,vitamin e, Magnesium, trace minerals and flax oil all by oral syringe.old Vet has me giving her CBD( her own company makes it) and believes her Prascend at 2 mg a day is to high and causing her to be picky with food.I also give Saraphina APF. Is there any thing else I can try if it is colonic ulcers? For some reason the vet does not believe it’s ulcers, I’m guessing because she thinks the Gastrogard would have cleared up any chances of that? Also old vet said dose of Sucralfate was to low to make a difference. Good news! Philip is making progress with her feet! He seems happy with her progress. She is up most of the time and walking around( sore but better) I will work on photo’s of her feet! -- Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021
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Re: Magni - Cloud boots and hoof alignment
Deb Walker
Kathy - They are just typical kitchen sponges ... 3 x 4" (??) with the rough backing.
-- Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619
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Re: Uploading xrays
Thurstonjs@...
Thank you, Sherry!
-- Jackie Thurston Suffolk, VA 2021 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Rose https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268230
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Re: Ughh!!! Pilgrim confirmed to have PPID
Sherry Morse
So if you look at the Liphook chart (https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Seasonal-Changes-in-ACTH-Secretion2.pdf) for week 37 he's elevated but not a crazy amount. I would still aim to get him up to the 1mg dose sooner than a month from now though and plan on restesting as mentioned earlier.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Re: curious.
Sherry Morse
Regina is this the folder that you were looking for? https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Re: Uploading xrays
Sherry Morse
Hi Jackie, As far as boots I would go by what she tells you. If she's comfortable on the footing that you have I would probably err on the side of no boots, but if she starts acting at all sore then I'd want something in the way of hoof protection (assuming it's coming from her soles).
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Re: Ughh!!! Pilgrim confirmed to have PPID
ferne fedeli
I don't like Licorice myself, but had read that horses like it, so I ordered the Beet-e-Bites Pill Pouches in Licorice and my Icelandic just LOVES them! After a couple of days of them, when I pulled the pouch out of the little bag, he grabbed at it and gobbled it down!!!
-- Ferne Fedeli Magic & Jack 2007 No. California
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Re: Ughh!!! Pilgrim confirmed to have PPID
Hi Sherry,
Bloodwork was drawn on Sept 9… -- Suzanne and Pilgrim Joined March 2019 Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Suzanne%20and%20Pilgrim https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90935
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Re: Uploading xrays
Thurstonjs@...
She is definitely a cutie for sure! Thank you for looking at the pics. Her sole is very thin. My farrier said she may never grow it. That said, she seems to be comfortable and striding without discomfort. I want to start working with her soon, groundwork, but am concerned about her feet. Would you boot her?
Thank you, again Sherry! -- Jackie Thurston Suffolk, VA 2021 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Rose https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268230
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curious.
regina bruno
hi. i haven't been on here in a while and have been looking around. it seems like some stuff is gone, like, for example, a list of lab tested food items. is that the case or am i just not finding it?
-- Regina and Smokey June 26, 2017 Laurelville, Ohio https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey . https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316 .
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new trim pictures
nikkibob1994@...
I just trimmed darby and have uploaded trim pictures to his album as well as a body pic. If anyone has time to take a peek please. His newest xrays taken this week are there too. Thank you!
-- Nikkibob Wisconsin, Sept 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396
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Re: Uploading xrays
Sherry Morse
Good job Jackie! Her toes were definitely too long and not a lot of sole in July and she has some pretty significant sidebone in both feet. She's very cute though!
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Re: Mare 2 1/2 months pregnant has foundered
Sherry Morse
Oh Kim I'm so sorry about the loss of the foal. I'm mystified about the email issue and my only thought is that she should check her trash folder as well as the Spam folder but I just looked and it looks like she signed up with a different email about an hour ago.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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