Date   

Re: New member My Mare Chicy diagnosed with Founder 9/15/2021 at just less than 3 months in foal

Frances C
 

Janet, while looking for signs in the pasture, keep an eye open for birds ,especially crows gathering around an area. They may be on to something.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Flea on Invokana

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The 50 mg dose is probably too low to be having a full effect  Your 7/20 insulin was the only one out of acute laminitis range. If you want to wait until October to confirm that, keep a close eye on his hoof comfort.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Does Tendon EQ have enough JHerb for Ringbone Pain?

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

I thought it was used for pain relief. That’s what I want for P because I know NSAIDS are not the way to go for pain.

--
Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )


Re: Flea on Invokana

Jennifer Murphy
 

Flea has been doing really well lately, and I was very lucky to get some hay that tested (603 test) at 3.8 ESC+starch, low iron, and reasonable protein.  I did have a hard time getting my vet to submit a prescription this last time around (not that she was reluctant, just that she never seemed to have time), and was forced to reduce Flea's dose until my Rx finally gets here.  I nearly ran out, but she did call in a 10 pill Rx to a local pharmacy to get me through.  I've been giving Flea about 50mg/day now since Sept. 11 and so far he seems to be doing ok.  The vet, farrier, and I are coordinating for another round of radiographs and bloodwork at the end of October.   

Dr. Kellon, am I risking anything keeping Flea on the 50mg dosage for the short-term, and possibly long-term?  I'm not sure when my 90 day Rx will finally get here, but I was thinking that if Flea continues to do well on the lower dose, I'd like to continue that at least until the October bloodwork to see if it's keeping his numbers down.  If insulin and triglycerides are within normal range, would it hurt to continue with the lower dose?  Also, should I retest his ACTH at the same time?  It was 26.7 the last draw, July 9th.  I have my own spreadsheet with all his results since 2016, and that's the lowest his ACTH has ever been.

--
Jennifer in NH
2020

CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea

Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Re: new trim pictures

nikkibob1994@...
 

I just wanted to bring this up again, if someone could have a look I would very much appreciated it
--
Nikkibob
Wisconsin, Sept 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396


Re: How to Store Pergolide Once Blister Foil is opened?

Kandace Krause
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon for confirming this as in thread it was becoming less clear about the lose of efficacy once opened/dissolved/exposed etc.

Suzanne I have done as mentioned folding back into foil, put in a cool very dark container and balance is being used within 24 hours.  I can no longer trick horse with food treats and must dissolve full 2.5 pill dose and administer within 30 minutes (driving time to barn) in 10 ml of water.  I follow with some unsweetened applesauce to get a bit of tongue movement going, hoping the meds go down the hatch.
--
Kandace K
Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259062


Re: Mixing hay

Kandace Krause
 

Hi Lamourah,
I also, living near Banff, have soaking hay in winter issues.  I did do it for a while into freeze by hanging one flake per net in a shed with a space heater drying it a bit.  I also used an empty stall space in my run in shed with matting on the floor to shake and mix hay varieties.  As the others have mentioned this brought the overall percentages down.
I also laid some soaked hay out over snow fencing and saw horses to dry a bit longer and in our dry air it did, not sure if that wouldwork for you but your cold shouldn't be as deep as our minus 30 either.
I was, possibly over careful on mixing, but I did want to make sure that the high sugar starch hay was well mixed in hoping this would help keep spikes down and encourage the eating of all the hay, not just going after the "candy" first.
--
Kandace K
Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259062


Re: New member My Mare Chicy diagnosed with Founder 9/15/2021 at just less than 3 months in foal

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I'd also like to mention for those of you in areas where it's hard to get an equine vet, you could check for bovine vets especially if you have a serious situation like this.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Saraphina blood work,help Dr. Kellon

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If she has been off NSAIDs that long colonic ulcers are not the problem. Have you tried the hay unsoaked to see if she will eat it that way? Anything else she eats readily? Milk of Magnesia is an antacid. You could try giving her a dose of it at another time of day to see if it changes her eating then. While your vet is there  be sure to request an exam for oral ulcers.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New member My Mare Chicy diagnosed with Founder 9/15/2021 at just less than 3 months in foal

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Your concern is warranted.  A retained placenta most definitely could do this. Those temps are OK but keep taking them. Is there any vaginal drainage? Hopefully they will make sure she is cleaned out on Tuesday.  Any chance your breeder friend's vets could see her before then?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Lame

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There's no need to flush an abscess. The abscess has a wall around it created by the body to seal it off from healthy tissues. If you flush too forcefully, you could cause leaks in that wall and spread the problem. The abscess cavity will heal from the bottom up to skin surface.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Does Tendon EQ have enough JHerb for Ringbone Pain?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Jiaogulan isn't an arthritis treatment. I would follow your vet's plan.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New Body and Hoof Photos Added and Case History Updated

Cindy Q
 
Edited

Hi Karen

I would add that you have limited views for your hoof pictures with the 2 left feet laterals still very fuzzy. You likely need a full set of pictures in order to provide meaningful data for markups or more feedback! A tip is not to have the camera too close to the foot either as there can be distortion near the edge of the view and you are more likely to have better focus. Having the camera a little distance back especially for lateral views also allows part of the cannon bone to show (it should be vertical).

More information on hoof photos here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

--
Cindy and Glow (over the rainbow bridge) - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response





Re: Current Laminitis

Cindy Q
 
Edited

Hello Anne

Welcome to the group! 

1) If your hay is not tested, I would suggest to start with the Emergency Diet under the heading "What is the Emergency Diet" found about halfway down the page here: 
https://www.ecirhorse.com/DDT+E-diet.php . Soak your grass hay for an hour and drain well before feeding unless your hay has been tested to be less than 10% ESC +starch (wet chemical analysis more accurate than NIR). More details below in the Diet section of our welcome letter. Even though you may not have changed hay, if your hay is not tested to be safe, it would be worth soaking it until at least hay test is done and/or your testing for IR/PPID comes back. PPID can drive insulin higher.

2) As your horse is tender, try getting some padding under his feet such as cloud pads or cloud boots (blue ones from Easycare). Those pads are cushy and can conform to the bottom of the feet giving support and comfort. Other things that might work would be cheap eva foam gym mats but those tend to crush down quite quickly. You can read under the Trim section below on how to make an album and post pictures of his hoof if you would like input on his trim. Optimising his trim can also help with comfort. 
You can also try him on Laminox https://uckele.com/laminox-3lbs.html as mentioned by Dr Kellon here https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/262875. She also shared Coupon code UHNWELCOME for 10% off your first order and code ECIR for 5% off on orders after that.

3) Please read the Diagnosis section of our welcome letter which explains recommendations on conditions for testing and labs to get the most out of your test. September is pretty much the peak month for seasonal rise so I agree with your suspicion of PPID.

Without further ado, here is our official letter with all the important details:

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.

--
Cindy and Glow (over the rainbow bridge) - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response





Current Laminitis

amariepeer@...
 

 

My 17 year old gelding is currently experiencing laminitis and I’m certain it’s due to the seasonal rise. He is not currently medicated. I have a request into my vet. My question is how can I help him? Here’s some back story.

 

I’ve always suspected he had something metabolic or PPID going on. When he was about 10 he was experiencing constant laminitis, was very prone to infections, had horrible allergies, very poor coat health and horrible hoof health. We were very close to putting him down. In a last stitch effort, I put him on a dry lot, did a diet overhaul, and took him barefoot on a 4 week schedule. I’ve managed to turn him around completely. At 17 he is back in light work and looking/feeling the best he has in a long, long time. Until now. Without any changes in diet, trim, or management he is experiencing a digital pulse and slight heat in 3 of his limbs. He is extremely tender and does not want to move. I reached out to my vet to request testing and I’m certain we will start meds. But what can I do until then to give him comfort? I did an ice slurry today, which he seemed to enjoy, but i couldn’t keep it on him all day. I hate to see him in pain. 

 

Diet is forage based with 

  • 1 lb stabul
  • Vitamin E
  • Equi vm 
  • Table salt
  • Flax
  • Top 4 Amino 
--
Anne 
Northwest Ohio 
2020 member


Re: Just Diagnosed

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Marcy,

We don't recommend Metabarol because there is no evidence it works and at around $160 per month, it's a pretty pricey experiment. Here is a link to some more info on Resveratrol, the main ingredient:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/8%20Commercial%20Items%20Targeting%20IR%20and%20PPID/Resveratrol.pdf

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Lame

Lamourah Perron
 

Hi Lavinia
The abcess is just above her central sulcus and her heal bulbs.

--

Lamourah Perron 
Queens Bay British Columbia 
Hoof pictures Sept 2021


Does Tendon EQ have enough JHerb for Ringbone Pain?

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Hi Dr. Kellon,

If you remember, you suggested I put Pabatsa on Tendon EQ. He's has been getting fed 1 scoop/day along with Spirulina for allergies. He came up slightly lame on his LF were he has ringbone while trotting to the left (he's toed-in on that foot). My vet drew blood yesterday for IRAP. He suggested IRAP followed with Adequan loading dose then monthly. What are your thoughts on this and do you have suggestions for another treatment plan as well as pain relief for him?

Thank you for helping him!
--
Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )


Re: Lame

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

The best pain management is to let the abscess drain - usually, as soon as it bursts, the pain decreases quite a bit. As long as she is eating, drinking, peeing/pooping fine, best to let it run its course. Allow her to walk around at will, as that type of movement will also encourage it to drain. Anything that works on pain will slow maturation of the abscess.

Where did the abscess start to drain? Generally, just soak the hoof, apply a drawing poultice (Numotizine is a good one), wrap and boot.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Lame

Lamourah Perron
 

Hi Lavinia
I mean that I need to soak her hoof, flush the abcess, cold hose her leg as she has some swelling. If maybe from the abcess or she may have tweaked it. It has been raining and muddy here.
What would you suggest for pain management?
She is quite uncomfortable. 
--
Lamourah Perron 
Queens Bay British Columbia 
Hoof pictures Sept 2021

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