Date   

Re: What now....help please

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I haven't seen any favorable reports on gabapentin results yet but you could try it. Try it without the ALCar first so you can tell if it's working. I don't know if the Prascend is really needed but this isn't the time of year to stop it. Wait until end November to stop then do  a TRH stimulation 4+ weeks later.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: What now....help please

nikkibob1994@...
 

Thank you Nancy, I am always looking for trimming advice as I am not a trained farrier but have had NO luck having the professional farriers get him or keep him sound.
--
Nikkibob
Wisconsin, Sept 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396


Re: ivermectin price increase?

Maxine McArthur
 

So if any of you US owners have ivermectin stocked up, now is the time to mark it up to $100s per tube on eBay and earn some pergolide money! (Just kidding … maybe)
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: ivermectin price increase?

Bobbie Day
 

I had to go to the big city today for supplies and thought about this thread, last time I came over (about six weeks ago) I saw all the signage and thought I ought to stock up (but didn’t) but behind me in the checkout (TS) a man in a Hawaiian shirt probably bought ten tubes, trust me he was not a horse owner. Got home and immediately ordered mine from valley vet , I don’t remember how much it was but it wasn’t two dollars a tube . I got mine just fine but today when I came over all TS had was the huge cattle size ones and they were locked up.
The girl up front told me they are a good four months out here. Man now I wished that I had bought several tubes to share, I’m not sure if my vet can get it but unless he had a stock I’m guessing not.
This is crazy and maddening, I wonder how many horses will be doing without.


--
Bobbie and Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21)
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020 , NAT , C&IR March 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: What now....help please

nikkibob1994@...
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon, I will order The Jiaogulan and acetyl L carnitine now. What are your thoughts on adding gabapentin, my vet recommended it a couple weeks ago, but I haven't gone down that road as I thought I was still dealing with laminitis. I can attest to how affective it is no nerve pain......  I have been taking it for spinal stenosis for a few years now. Think its worth adding in to his cocktail? And do I keep going with the Prascend?
--
Nikkibob
Wisconsin, Sept 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396


Re: What now....help please

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Well, it isn't an acute insulin issue and isn't a major trim problem either. Other possibilities include vasospasm/poor perfusion worsened by the NSAIDs or neuropathic pain. I would suggest seeing is your vet is willing to switch to Tramadol for pain relief (5 mg/kg orally twice a day) and once off NSAIDs start Jiaogulan. I would also start acetyl-L-carnitine 1 g/100 lbs bodyweight ASAP for neuropathic pain.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Chicy's 3rd trim in 9 days - Lavinia please help - sole pics uploaded on all fours

Qhgirl
 

Hi Lavenia,

We worked on her a while today. Rasp too dull and new one I bought too dull.  Not great with one that cannot stand on a single front foot more than a few seconds. 
I can see looking at pictures she has a lot of flaring but not being a farrier was afraid to take off more than we did which was quite a bit of wall. Left quarters alone until I have more guidance. Need advice on how to handle those and heels  

Did I take too much?  Pray not. Vet coming Thursday to ultrasound for baby.

Farrier coming too but wants her tranquilizers and has stated his training is to never take away wall. She has the wedge pads from her Clouds taped to her feet now.  They are a little too long now with today's trim.  I put excess pad at heel but would like to be able to trim down and rocker heel a little. Can this be done?  I plan to order new shorter wedge pads. I like taping them to her feet for now as easier to get to them every few days. 

What tranquilizers can she have being in foal and foundered?  I do not want to do but farrier says he wants  

Thank you for supporting us. I want to follow your program. She was barefoot up until late spring. She has had farriers who are supposed to be the best in my area. I noticed her heels getting under run and let the farrier go I used for years for the new one who has shod her 3 times. I kept telling him she looked like she was dropping and needed more heel but he said she has great feet and just grew fast. 

--
Janet and Chicy (in foal)
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Re: What now....help please

nikkibob1994@...
 

A lymes test was done through cornell on 9/3/21, everything was negative
--
Nikkibob
Wisconsin, Sept 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396


Re: Founder

Tracy
 

Thanks again Lavinia.  I am still looking around for a vet that is willing to do compounded perg .  My vet did mention the veil during our call this morning.  I will do the 1/4 tablet for four days and maybe go to half a pill extra after that - I'll keep in touch with my vet.  We want to avoid the veil if possible.  I have some APF Pro - but he hates the flavor - he's hard to syringe too due to a mouth accident as a yearling.  I believe for his weight (around 830) he would get about 8mls of APF Pro?

I'll let that order with my local store for  j-herb stand and just add it later.

I will try to get new hoof pics later today when my hubby is home to help.  I need to measure for boots - so if he isn't TOO ouchy for a few minutes I'll get those pics for your feedback.

--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: Founder

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

The 1mg of pergolide (Prascend) that is Sals'a current dose is a fairly low dose and is the starting dose for most horses. As PPID is a progressive disease, needing higher doses to maintain tight control is fairly common. At this point in time, 1/4mg of additional perg (Prascend) isn't likely to make much of a difference, so I would be looking to do a larger bump to counteract the rise effects. If you don't see results in 4 days, I'd continue raising by 1/4mg increments to at least 2mg (this with my vet's OK) or until Salsa improves. Then redo blood work after 3 weeks at the higher dose, if possible.

Once the acute laminitis has passed, starting him on j-herb would be a good idea as it increases circulation and can help to grow more sole. It will also accelerate overall hoof growth, so keeping an appropriate trim schedule and getting more aggressive with those toes is going to be needed.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: New member My Mare Chicy in foal Dr Kellon Levenia

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jennifer,

The horizontally long toes at ground level are a common problem in all horses, not just laminitic ones. It generally goes hand-in-hand with heels that are underrun to some degree. Continual over-trimming of the soles, bars and frogs adds to the mechanical insult and instability. These are trimming issues that weaken the overall integrity of the hoof capsule so if laminitis hits, more severe damage tends to occur. If the hoof capsule fits the bones inside correctly, it will help lessen the severity of any "attacks" to the lamina. Even with the best trims, if there are repeated attacks, there will be increasing, cumulative damage so just getting the trim right doesn't prevent the possibility of serious consequences.

The best practice is to keep the hoof capsule tightly aligned to the bones within.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Founder

Tracy
 

Thanks Lavinia!  No - his soles have not been touched by farrier in probably 2 years (yeah- they are THAT thin).  We are backing toes up - slowly.  I just updated my CH and am about to upload it.  Generally I have new hay, so supplements were adjusted to it and I'm using a different carrier (all listed on updated CH).  That's the biggest CH update.  He's due in October for yearly vet - so October of last year is the most recent ACTH.
I got a call back from vet a while ago and she suggested adding 1/4 of a Prascend - so will start that with his dose this evening. I have a good pill cutter in the tack room.

Is it worth getting the J-herb?  If he won't need it - I can call the feed store and have them cancel it.  But if it might benefit him after this episode has passed I will go ahead and get it to have ready.

Tracy
--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: New member My Mare Chicy in foal Dr Kellon Levenia

Jennifer Green
 

Trying to learn what I can from other posts. The long toes seem to be a common reoccurring theme here. Out of curiosity, are the toes long and the angle of the hoof shallow because of the laminitis? If you are able to keep the angle closer to what seems to be about 45 degrees, are you able to prevent the severity of the laminitis?  
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Re: Could someone tell me if the blood results could have been affected by sedative

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

It depends on the sedative used:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/SEDATIVE%20EFFECTS.pdf

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Founder

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tracy,

Sorry to hear Salsa is uncomfortable. The last updates to the case history were done in 10-2020, so nothing in there later than that. No point in beating yourself up about what's in the past, as that can't be changed. Let's just work on getting the present fixed as quickly as possible.

This sounds very suspicious for his ACTH being higher than he can tolerate, as we are hitting the peak of seasonal rise now. If he was mine, I'd be raising the pergolide dose asap. Even tho you'd be chasing the rise, if he's laminitic it needs to be done. J-herb shouldn't be used in an actively laminitic individual, so would wait on that until the acute laminitis has passed. Even tho his current hay may be safe, soaking it at least temporarily won't hurt.

Did the farrier touch his soles at all during the trim? He does appear to have some sinking, which combined with toes that are too long horizontally, will work to keep his soles thin. The  rads show his HPAs are slightly broken back, with underrun heels. It would be helpful to have a full set of hoof photos - now would be the perfect time as he was just trimmed.

Hang in there.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: New member My Mare Chicy in foal Dr Kellon Levenia

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

My suggestion would be for you to look at the angle of growth at the top of her hoof near the coronet (I do see a change in the angle on her LF lateral, but I don't see much change on the RF lateral) and draw an imaginary line down to where that new growth would intersect the ground.  Then shorten the toes to where that line would be at the ground (do not rasp the hoof wall higher up, just the toe near the ground).  That will shorten her toes.  It's not quite enough but it will be an improvement and there's no danger of going too far if you don't go past that imaginary line.  It's ok to go in the the whiteline at the toe.  It will be necessary to make any significant changes.  You can draw on the hoof with a black marker if that helps.

I strongly advise asking Lavinia for markups because Chicy's heels are so underrun.  It is not easy or simple to fix that.  Here is a good example of a horse with long toes and underrun heels (esp the hinds) and the markups that were done for him:
Feb 19 2020 photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?p=pcreated%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C820%2C0&jump=1&id=243358
And here are Lavinia's notes for that first trim:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/248330
If you follow the photo history, you'll see how his hooves improved but it took time and diligent trimming.


--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: What now....help please

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Have you repeated his Lyme titers recently?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Terrie and Dixie

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Terrie,

Thanks for the heads-up.

This group is where all discussions take place.You just need to post a message here that you would like some input on it.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Founder

Tracy
 

Adding - I just put the xray pics from September 9th up in my Photos.  I think they are ok - I was getting over covid at the time and didn't remember all the tips this group has about good films.
There are films from 2019 when he was originally dx PPID and was ouchy.  He has always had thin soles.
I called Bonnie's (local store in my area) and they THINK they can get J herb for me on Tuesday.  They are checking.
Salsa went into his dry lot and ate hay.  He is standing out there now and we added even more pellets to his stall - and I hose them down to get them softer.  I'm not going to 'make' him go in there.
He's standing, steady, not shifting weight etc - just still, in his dry lot and not rocked back.

--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: How do people soak hay when the horse is at a boarding facility

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Aunna,

With Caset's history of high insulin and his most recent result being elevated it looks like he needs as low of a sugar diet as possible.  Ruger might be fine with the higher nutrient hay because his insulin has never been a problem.

Can you post the analyses?  If the lower nutrient hay is still palatable/digestible and has lower s+s I would go with that because my priority with my horse is minimizing the risk of laminitis and he is very sensitive to sugars.  IMO it's easier to supplement nutrients than it is to deal with high insulin. 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

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