Date   

Re: Update on Flirt

Roger Benson
 

To Dr Kellon and Lavinia,
Thank you both for your replies.  My current farrier who will be here for the last time on Saturday was doing the work last August when the trim was so good.  Flirt’s feet had responded very well.  At that time Flirt was on metformin and insulin was decreasing until it stalled out in December.  He has been on 75 mg since January.  His insulin bottomed out at 13.2 in early summer.  Something went wrong when we were gone for a week in July.

Lavinia, the farrier has addressed the laminar wedge in recent visits, but stopped when he began to draw blood.
He is a good man and very gentle with Flirt.  I have sent him your advise of cutting it off.  I am wondering if he was going about it the wrong way.  How can we help him?

Both of you reaffirmed my need to tighten up the diet.  I was over compensating for Invokana and worried about Flirt’s weight when we returned home in July. Now the only time he will go into the pasture is with his muzzle sealed.  I bad!

In Flirt’s photo album I have posted a couple of videos from this morning.  

Dr. Kellon,  how much Hemp Joint Supplement with devils claw should Flirt have each day?  Right now I give him a scoop in the morning that he completes by evening with TBC and then I give a half scoop at night with his TBC.  I have not given any tramadol.  I want to wait until  the farrier sees him on Saturday.

Hopefully Invokana will once again do its job and help Flirt regain some comfort.  ACTH numbers which I expect soon may give us another clue
Thank you so much

--
Roger and Flirt
January 2018  Atwater, Minnesota
Flirts Case History
Flirt's Photos


Re: Could someone tell me if the blood results could have been affected by sedative

Carrie
 

Thanks Cass ...

........in Medesedan is the same as in Dormosedan:

Helpful to know

Carrie 
March 2021
UK


Re: Setback: need advice on X-rays

Carrie
 

Hi, hope you don't mind me adding to your posted string. I am based in UK on the Welsh/Shropshire border. We have clay soil & plenty of rain over winter.  Due to my donkey being diagnosed with PPID/ EMS with dropped P3 bone in both front feet it's more than necessary to rethink turnout in a dry lot set up for her. So we have been looking at ideas that would suit our area & my donkeys situation. If you would like to share with my ideas please feel free to PM me & I'll share the latest we've come up with.

In addition someone mentioned Forageplus  to you, I wanted to say I am using them & have found them excellent. It's good to feel assured their products link to  ECIR ethos & so help reduce issues that you might otherwise come across shopping from local suppliers. They give nutrition advice if needed as well as hay analysis service. .... If you decide you are interested in using them PM me as there is a referral discount we can both gain from. 
Feel free to ignore the above if you don't feel inclined.
Best of luck with the progress you will see using ECIR advice 
Carrie

--
Carrie 
March 2021
UK


locked Diarrhea is back, Dr. Kellon what do you recommend

dr.kellylear@...
 

Hi everyone, 
I’m looking for a little bit of advice here. Saddie had a couple normal stools this weekend but the internist noticed she had a few changes (comet tails)  in her right lungs that concerned him. He felt like that was why her neutrophil count is still elevated despite having a normal temp. He went ahead and put her on naxcel on Saturday evening along with the gentamicin she had been on. Yesterday (Monday) she broke with liquid diarrhea again and it continued last night and this morning. 

I spoke with him about my concerns of keeping her on antibiotics with the diarrhea and causing antibiotic induced colitis especially with how much her intestines have been through already in the past few weeks. He disagrees with me and thinks she needs to stay on the antibiotics. He agreed to take the naxcel down from twice a day to once a day. 

He did repeat blood work today and I attached it in her files. Her SAA is down in the 200s and her neutrophils are still dropping. She still isn’t running a fever again and her gum color is good. 

Please let me know what your opinion is with the antibiotics? I am worried they are going to make things worse. 

Thank you again for your help! 

Kelly 

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Saddie

 

--

 

Kelly Lear in Texas 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Saddie

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=267371


Re: weight gain #photo

Anette
 

Thank you Dr.K, It's nice to have an outside opinion. Which one is advisable if I'm wanting to rule out any other issues that would be the cause of his weight loss?
--
Anette and Superman (Jaywalker in heaven)
Boomer, NC
Sep.9 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anette%20and%20Jaywalker
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265991


Re: Setback: need advice on X-rays

Carrie
 


Re: DEWORMING PROTOCOL FOR PPID GELDING

Sue Ring
 

Thank you Lavinia!  I do have a supply of Strongid C 2X pellets.  Would the protocol to use that up at the appropriate weight dosage for the 30 day period have the same effect for a Cushing's, non-IR horse, even though the praziquantel warning would not apply to him as PPID only??  In other words, same outcome, different product and longer administration of that product??  I'd like to use up this Strongid C 2X supply that I have on hand rather than buy praziquantel if the effect of getting rid of tapes and encysted strongles is the same.......
--
Sue R in NC 2021

CASE HISTORY:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Shifty

PHOTO FILES: 


 


Re: Could someone tell me if the blood results could have been affected by sedative

 

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 06:51 AM, Carrie wrote:
I cant find the Medesedan on it.
Carrie, the active ingredient in Medesedan is the same as in Dormosedan: Detomidine hydrochloride. It's the first sedative listed in the link.
 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: AVRIO Pharmacy - Change in capsules

Laura Risley
 

Hi Joy,

Thank you!  Happy to help in any way I can.  Also, we are sending you a couple adapters.  

--
Laura Risley, PharmD
Pharmacist at Avrio Pharmacy (Pet Health division)
Owner of Bo and Sid
Phoenix, AZ 
Joined 2021


Re: Magnesium

 

Jackie, when you first add the table salt (NaCl) to your horse’s meal, she may be a bit put off.  You may need to add it gradually, increasing the amount over time.  I put the extra on top of the hay, sometimes adding water to help it stick if they hay isn’t wet from soaking.  I’ve never had the hay refused because of the salt but I have had some bucket food refused for that reason.
You won’t need to do that with the magnesium salt (MgOx) because it doesn’t have a ‘salty’ taste.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: AVRIO Pharmacy - Change in capsules

Joy V
 

Thank you again Laura, for your replies and the information, I really appreciate it.  You have helped allay some of my fears with this change.  


--
Joy and Willie (EC/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Re: Magnesium

Thurstonjs@...
 

Thank you, Martha! I researched how much magnesium she needs on a daily basis. Thank you about the different magnesiums! I need to look at what types she's getting. I did forget to factor in her salt, I thought of that last night. I do have the magnesium oxide to supplement.

Thank you again!
--
Jackie Thurston
Suffolk, VA 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Rose

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268230


Re: Saraphina new hoof photos,help Lavinia

CYNDI CARLSON
 

Hi Lavinia,
I will tell Philip to contact you! Thank you!
--
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021


Re: Magnesium

 

Hi Jackie,
You’re on the right track with the magnesium.  Add up what is in your feed and subtract that from what your horse should have.  You supply the rest.  Keep track of whether the reports are for elemental magnesium or a salt such as magnesium oxide.  There are different magnesium salts and the magnesium is a different percentage of each.  MgOx is what we generally use to supplement.

Just a reminder to keep your word processing document for your case history safe and accessible.  Often, when people go to update their case history, they have no document to update as they deleted the original.  So the general drift is to fill out a CH form on your word processor and save it.  Make a pdf from that and post it.  To update, you open the saved word processing CH document and update it, save the new document, make a new pdf the update and post it.  Saving the pdf after posting it is not necessary.

You may well understand all this but many people don’t and I thought this might be a good chance to remind others.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Update on Flirt

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Roger,

Do NOT increase his Invokana. Do make sure he's actually ingesting it and tighten up that diet. Invokana does not compensate for uncontrolled ACTH or a diet that is too liberal.

Is the farrier you are calling your "regular" farrier the same one that was trimming him last August?

Something I think that needs addressing with Flirt is that he cannot "recover". He has lost at least half of his coffin bone, probably more, and has extreme rotation. These are not reversible. I have seen ponies with these changes be able to walk comfortable if their insulin was strictly controlled and with a hoof that suited them, i.e. all the parameters we always talk about plus higher than normal sole depth. However, that doesn't mean this is possible with all of them. Smoldering deep infection, a distinct possibility in his case, is one thing that will keep the pain magnified. Others just don't have enough bone left to ever achieve comfort.

Has Flirt ever been at a place where his trim was as good as last August and his insulin was low? In August his trim was very good but insulin still high and he was still extremely lame.

When dealing with a chronic case like this with significant irreversible damage it's important to have clear goals and guidelines. The will to live is the most powerful force in the universe but that doesn't mean we should keep going until they are so beaten down and overwhelmed they give up.  Reasonable freedom from constant pain is certainly one criterion. So is the ability to maintain body condition. Horses in constant pain often can't hold a normal body weight.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: update on Dolly's xrays- Dr. Kellon/Lavinia

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Trisha,

In addition to the poor ground clearance she has active ringbone that appears to involve the coffin joint. I would go for a rounded hoof wall and make sure there is meticulous medial-lateral balance. She needs boots and pads for now but boot needs to have easy breakover.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: update on Dolly's xrays- Dr. Kellon/Lavinia

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Trisha,

I added a couple of quick mark-ups to Dolly's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=68748

Back her toes, RF needs more than the LF, only in the area of the blue Xs. Leave everything else as is other than to bevel her walls at ground level. Soles are really thin, so that alone could make her tender.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Lavinia mark up requested on sole pictures please

Maxine McArthur
 

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 07:25 AM, Qhgirl wrote:
What I read in the trim link is to go into or through the white line. That is a broad statement and looking at those pics most do not go near the white line. This is where my questions lie. 
--
Does this help? This is a photo in Indy's album below.  CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Photo

You can see here where my trimmer has brought the toe back right up to the white line from 10 to 2 approx. The outer wall is not removed completely, but because of the angle of the bevel, the outer wall doesn't touch the ground. Over the four-week trim cycle that outer wall will grow down to the ground; or rather, it would grow down if I didn't maintain the bevel weekly. 

This is one of the photos in the 'tight white line' album in the Photos section. This shows a trim in progress, going right up to the white line and removing wall at the toe. main@ECIR.groups.io | Photo

Also, here is a quick video of me rasping toe on a hoof on the ground (standing on a mix of sand and gravel). It's messy because I had to hold the phone with one hand and rasp with the other--sorry for all the moving around. I find that if I start with the fine side of the rasp it's easier. Disclaimer: be careful under the horse, I suggest you have someone hold the horse's head, and wear head protection yourself. Use a good rasp, as Cass commented. The one in the video is a Heller Legend that has lasted me several months and will probably last another year at least with care. The hoof in the video was only trimmed last week so I just 'smoothed' it a bit. Don't expect to do a lot in one go. 

https://youtu.be/m0Rz4v_4BQU
(mute the sound because the rasp sounds really loud so close up!)

 As Kirsten commented, you could leave it for the moment until after the farrier trims on Thursday. You can always touch up between farrier trims, as many of us do.  
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: AVRIO Pharmacy - Change in capsules

Laura Risley
 

The molasses flavor is artificial :)

--
Laura Risley, PharmD
Pharmacist at Avrio Pharmacy (Pet Health division)
Owner of Bo and Sid
Phoenix, AZ 
Joined 2021


update on Dolly's xrays- Dr. Kellon/Lavinia

Trisha DePietro
 

New xrays done today. full series this time. the last visit was just lateral films (Sept 13 2021) She's finding relief in the easy boot clouds with the blue pad. Dr.Kellon or Lavinia...any thoughts on her films?  Vet's not convinced its laminitis, although, she thinks she 'moves' like laminitis....I plan on relieving her toe and her wall more so less ground contact on the outer wall...anything else to tweak? I'd like to start phyto quench, HA or devils claw- which would be best for her at this point? Thanks. PS...I didn't have any playdoh for her collateral grooves, so I used whole wheat bread to fill them if they look weird....:) 
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder

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