Date   

Re: Diet help

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rose,

Did you read all the emails in response to your original post? (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/85615771#269007) Do you know if the bloodwork was fasting it or not?  How much does Vesper weigh now?  Is that the same as his ideal weight?  How much hay is he being fed? Has he been titrated up to at least a full 1mg of Prascend yet?  Are you feeding him following the guidelines of the emergency diet (which would mean eliminating Grow and Win and adding flax and Mg)?   To the last point it sounds like a no since you indicate he's still eating the Buckeye product and you have not added Mg, Flax or I presume salt to his diet. 




Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

melanie Schwartz
 

Ok, It started with Remy not letting me touch him without trying to bit me.  He also has cow patty poop and started to not want to eat.  at that time I was not giving nsaids.  Thats when I started to give gastrogard.   At that time he was limping around.  Then things got worse.  He started to lay down again and could hardly move.  So I started on the banamine again.  I have tried to take him off the banamine and give devils claw but he seems to get worse when I do.  It freaks me out.  I have tried cut the amount of banamine in half.  The same thing happens.  He goes to laying down all the time.  The pain is in his front feet.  More so on the front right . He can not put weight on it at the moment. He is leaning back alot..  I have to feed him on the floor tonight.  I also put some water in a pan for him to drink too.  I think he was a bit dehydrated tonight.  Now yesterday. when I touched his girth area, He still gave a dirty look.  As far as taking pictures of his feet.  im not sure I can right now.  because he is either laying down or cant move to a place that is level.  He is in a stall with shavings.  I collected the Hay and will send off.    HE does not like the banamine  but i make him take it.  I dont know if he is depressed. I dont think so.  He has horses next to him.  He calls to  people and gets lots of attention. Up till yesterday he was limping around and very interested in things and looking around.    I know he does not feel well.  I hope that helps.
--
MELANIE SCHWARTZ
DAVIE,  FLORIDA 33328
October 30, 2020
Remy's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melanie%20and%20Remy
Remys photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263092


Saraphina New trim pics, Lavinia

CYNDI CARLSON
 

Hi Lavinia 
Philip trimmed Saraphina today and He would like You to look at the the pics from today. I posted them in photos

thank you!
--
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021


Re: Soaking Hay question

jlmccarroll@...
 

Not sure if this will help and I know boarding nowadays is so expensive; but, at the last professional barn I boarded, there were people who would turn out and bring in horses, pull off/put on blankets, grain, etc. for a nominal fee.  Also, 4 of us created a "blanket group"...we set up a schedule where we took turns pulling and replacing blankets on each others' horses throughout the week (some of us could only do mornings and some of us were available at night).  If you happen to hear of another person who has a horse with special needs or someone who likes extra care for their horse, an extra supplement or meal, you might be able to create a cooperative relationship.  She soaks and feeds one meal of hay each day for you and you replace a blanket or give final supplements/meal to her horse at night??  Or, clean her tack?  Or, take her blanket to the laundromat?  

My heart is with you...30 days this summer (before I could access tested teff hay) I was soaking hay, spreading it out and fluffing it.  Crazy!   Including my riding, grooming, supplementing, bathing him for allergies, etc.,  I was spending 6 hr/day at the barn! (Fortunately, I had just retired so I had the time, but it was still a ridiculous schedule and was placing me on the path to burnout, if it persisted). Hang in there...there is a way to do this!

--
Jeannette Mc, NorCA 2021


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

 

Melanie, as I said earlier, I read through Remy’s journal today.  It makes my highly recommended reading list, except it may not suit our attention spans.  I totally agree that you have been through a lot but it doesn’t have to be such an unrewarding struggle.  We can help you along.  We have this construct we work with here which states that these are the issues we need to address - diagnosis, diet, trim an exercise or DDT/E.  I think I may have mentioned that before.  So, first let’s address the diagnosis.  To confirm your vet’s suspicions, I would suggest getting a TRH Stim test in late December or January.  This will tell you whether he has PPID or not, even if the endogenous ACTH test (non stim) is negative.  Second, I would redo the hay testing and find someone to balance your hay for you, once you have the results.  Third, I would work with Lavinia on the trim.  We don’t have drugs on the list but I would wean him off banamine.  These are not presented in chronological order, but rather following DDT/E.  Oh, and no exercise until he’s moving around freely on his own.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Senior Gelding - first Endogenous ACTH Test

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Stacey,

With such a high ACTH Smokey should be started on pergolide now.  With treatment, he can live a long life, and he will feel much better.  As Martha said, you want to avoid the laminitis that comes with PPID.

If your vet is willing to prescribe compounded pergolide, the pharmacy of choice in Canada is Island Pharmacy on Vancouver Island.   Your vet would fax a prescription to them, and they will bill you and mail it directly to you.  Island Pharmacy does regular quality control testing, and we have had their product tested independently and found it to be correct.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

 

Hi Melanie,
I was trying to figure out how to word my discussion of using NSAIDs and omeprazole concurrently and I guess I failed.  I’ll try again.  It’s not the actual drugs that don’t get along but instead the effects of those drugs.  It’s very common to have drug interactions and this just happens to be a bad one.  It can result in colitis and hind gut ulcers,  Basically, the bad gastric side effects of NSAIDs you’re hoping to avoid by also giving omeprazole are actually being made much worse.  It’s not a matter of what time of day he takes his meds but that the effects on his body are cumulative and adding to his discomfort.

Could you describe his pain?  How is he acting when you decide to give him banamine?  Is it in his feet, both feet, all over?  Is he depressed?

--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Worming question

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Administer both tubes of dewormer at the same time.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melanie,

You shouldn't use the Gastrogrd concurrently with the NSAIDs at all - it's not about the timing of the dosing.

Do not administer Gastrogard at all until the horse is no longer receiving any NSAIDs.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Worming question

Thurstonjs@...
 

One more question. Do I give both tubes (based on her weight) at the same time, or wait a day or so?
--
Jackie Thurston
Suffolk, VA 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Rose

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268230


Diet help

hollander8282@...
 

I have updated Vespers case history and added some pics.  He tested ppid positive the end of august, but not IR.  My vet says I don’t need to adjust diet as he is not IR, but it seems that I should be removing starch from his diet.  He currently gets buckeye grow and win balancer (which looks like it should be removed), vitamins e, cosequin with msm (also looks like it should be removed), and cal trace plus.  Will the cal trace, vitamin e, be balanced enough to give him what he needs?  I board and the hay changes frequently so I can’t really test it.  Should I also add magnesium and flax?
--
Rose Michele in Bucks County, PA
Joined in 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Files
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

melanie Schwartz
 


So, i dont give gastrogard and banamine at the same time.  Gastrogard is given on an empty stomach. 30min to an hour later. I feed him and them he gets banamine.  But yes, its been a cycle i cant seem to get out of.


MELANIE SCHWARTZ
DAVIE,  FLORIDA 33328
October 30, 2020
Remy's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melanie%20and%20Remy
Remys photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263092


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

melanie Schwartz
 

I tried just give him devils claw  last night and this am.  He has been mostly laying down. I hate seeing him in so much pain.  Vet told me to give gabapentin.  She wants to get behind the pain.  We are also giving him misoprostol for hind gut.    Truthfully,  im at my ends with this laminitis.   I'm considering to put to sleep. I just don't know if I can handle this anymore. THANKS FOR all your help.  

--
MELANIE SCHWARTZ
DAVIE,  FLORIDA 33328
October 30, 2020
Remy's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melanie%20and%20Remy
Remys photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263092


Re: Recent bloodwork seeking help understanding it….

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sharon,

The correct test for PPID was run. The ACTH is 264pg/ml, which means that when the test was run, the 1mg of pergolide (Prascend) was nowhere near enough to control the PPID. Dose needs to be raised. This is during the peak of the seasonal rise, so that value may drop to some degree as we get out of the rise period but no way to know if or by how much without retesting.

No results for insulin/glucose so assuming those weren't tested.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

 

Hi Melanie,
I read through your notes on Remy this morning and thought of a few practices you might want to change.  If he’s lying down, that’s fine - as long as he has access to food and water.  You really should not try to walk him when he doesn’t want to.  That can be damaging to his feet.  Giving him NSAIDs so he will walk just means that he will be more willing to walk on sore feet and perhaps damage them further.
It seemed as though he was on and off bute and banamine quite a few times.  If he’s been on it any length of time, you should wean him as I mentioned last night, where I also discussed not giving him NSAIDs and omeprazole together as that will cause more digestive upset.  Just a reminder on that, as well, as it seems to be a pattern you follow.  You are certainly not alone on that.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Hay Analysis Interpretation and Updated Blood Test Questions

Makendra Silverman - NS
 

I have been searching high and low for appropriate low sugar hay this year and have done three tests of my own as well. I am encountering mostly these Dairy One analyses that have starch but not ESC. I wondered if there was a way to determine if this hay is likely appropriate, even if I need to do an Equi-Analytical wet chem #603 test to confirm ESC and get all the mineral levels once I purchase the hay. Both the AM and PMs hay seem to be too high in protein at 16-17% but I am wondering if these tests are comparable?

I have made a "potential hay" folder in Arrow's hay analysis folder. I generally feel she does best with ESC + starch under 7%. If anyone is in Colorado and has a good source, I would love to know about it. 

And a secondary question, I purchased about 40 bales of rained on brome hay that was then put up dry ... in the hopes that it would be very low sugar and less palatable so that I could leave some extra out for Arrow and the burros to munch on between meals. (I try hard to make sure they never go 6 hours without forage but with work and Arrow being an excellent vacuum eater even from 3/4" NAG bags, that is difficult).  The ESC + Starch adds up to 7, not as low as hoped, but the iron is crazy high at 815ppm /  370 mg/lb. 
I have read in past files that rinsing the hay could reduce iron by 60%. I am still concerned that Arrow has high iron levels and have not yet done a blood serum test. 
Would you just scrap this hay and work on getting good clean hay with low iron? The hay was cheap and I don't trust each bale to be safe without checking first. (Sidenote: They have free choice barley straw as well for the donkeys )

Arrow's most recent blood work from early September is uploaded and her case history updated. Things have improved despite being at the start of the seasonal rise, so that is encouraging. However, her ACTH shot up from 9.38pg/mL to 36.7 pg/mL from April 2021 to September 2021 - is this seasonal rise or PPID concern? It has never been nearly that high but I have always tested in the spring. 

She is barefoot and I have added photos to her file from early September. The thrust has reduced and her feet are better each week, need to get updated photos posted. Her front soles seem less concave than they used to be. Her next trim appointment is late October but I rasp her toes and some wall if needed every two weeks or so. She is tender on hard surfaces with rocks but otherwise seems quite comfortable. She goes through and spends some hours eating in a 3-4" deep pea gravel area we made in the paddock. Paddock is a mix of crusher fines, clayish dirt, and wood chipped areas. It has been mostly very dry since mid-June. 

My main concerns are remaining crestiness, not loosing weight as much as I would expect on 1.5% of current body weight and ever increasing exercise. She feels better most of the time but something still seems to be causing inflammation. I have removed flax from her diet and have her on chia instead as that seemed to be causing added inflammation. 

Current ratios are the best since first tested two years ago. Although this is also the first time I did the blood draw at home and then took samples to vet - so the first truly non-stress and no travel, non-fasting test on her record:
G/I: 4.62
RISQUI: 0.22
MIRG: 8.4

I have added current photos and also photos of her in 2017 that show a more ideal body weight for her. 

Thank you so very much! 


Makendra and Arrow
Denver Colorado, 2021
Arrow's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Makendra%20and%20Arrow
Arrow's  Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=262625


Recent bloodwork seeking help understanding it….

Sharon Bice
 

Hi there! 
I am currently out of the country and someone is taking care of my horse, Tailight for a year, which makes me very nervous considering she was diagnosed with Cushings only a year ago and I truly don’t understand how to manage it quite yet - especially now from afar. I just uploaded Tailight’s recent bloodwork to her case history and the bloodwork file. I do not understand if/and why the number is so high or maybe they did the wrong test again. She gets one pill of Prascend each day. 
Thank you - so grateful for this group….

Sharon Bice
December 2020    Sandia Park, New Mexico

Taillight's Case History:  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Taillight%20Case%20History

Taillight's Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257590


Re: ACTH blood draw

Sherry Morse
 


Re: Devils claw

hdavis
 

Hello,

I am a bit confused on dosing for devils claw as I have read sun some places a horse should get 6 grams and then on some product it says 25 grams?  Any thoughts on how much to give for a horse that is on Invokana but needs an nsaid everywhere now and then as an nsaid for non EMS related issues. I purchased the bulk SC product from herbs for horses and all it says on it is 25 gram scoop included and that is the maintenance dose.  Any ideas if this is too much or not enough. I reached out to them but have not heard anything back. Thanks in advance.


--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Re: Worming question

Thurstonjs@...
 

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