Date   

Re: Magnesium

Thurstonjs@...
 

Dr. Kellon, I really appreciate your time with this! I am trying to follow along here, so bear with me.

She weighs 700#'s. I found she needs 6.34 grams a day. The amount she is currently receiving that you figured correctly, is that elemental grams? Or is she already receiving enough?

And where can I find your course?

Kindest,
--
Jackie Thurston
Suffolk, VA 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Rose

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268230


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Melanie,

Not wanting to be touched does NOT mean ulcers. It means he doesn't feel well for some reason.

How long did he have diarrhea? Has his temperature ever been checked when not on NSAIDs? Any recent blood counts? Why are you forcing him to take Banamine?

Lyme definitely is a thing in Florida. Less common would be Potomac Horse Fever but that can cause severe laminitis too and fits with the diarrhea. Both can be treated with oral doxycycline.

We're talking about these things because something is causing this, and it isn't high insulin. Top two contenders IMO are infection/collections trapped in the feet, and/or a systemic infection.

You asked about new radiographs. I would at least get a lateral of the RF. Also check a CBC and start monitoring his temperature twice a day once off NSAIDs.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Devils Claw and Equioxx

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It's OK to overlap for a few days while weaning but not long term.

The only way to get rid of laminitis pain is to remove the cause (and make sure trim is appropriate). Equioxx and DC don't do that.

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Considerations for possibly buying a second PPID horse

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

You can figure out how much your baseline costs will go up. Also factor in a contingency amount just in case he does get laminitic at some point. What struck me the most though was the description of his temperament. He may very well truly be a kind, kid-proof horse but many PPID/subclinical laminitis horses have behavior changes in that they are much more active and lively after they are properly treated. Some horses are exactly the opposite, sour and aggressive when in pain, sweet and kind when treated. Just something to consider.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Recent bloodwork seeking help understanding it….

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The shipping experience may have had an effect, but not to that extent. The longer the shipping time, the smaller the effect on ACTH.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Magnesium

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Jackie,

Requirements are both by weight and by what it takes to keep minerals in balance.

Not sure where you came up with that 3.10% number (? multiplied by pounds?) but that's not correct. % is a description, like color. If a jar of jelly beans are all purple, one of them is purple too. If a gallon of chocolate milk has 5% chocolate syrup, a glass of it has 5% chocolate syrup too. Your hay is 0.28% magnesium whether it's 5 lbs or 50 lbs.

You have to change pounds to kg, change kg to grams then multiply by percent as a decimal. She is getting 12.7 g from the hay and 1.4 g from the cubes.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Recent bloodwork seeking help understanding it….

Sharon Bice
 

Thank you very much, Lavinia! She was hauled to the vet for the test :( (but next time they will take the bloodwork themselves and get it to the vet - they are a few hours from a vet :( . But during the haul to the vet there were some horses loaded with her that were in the trailer ahead of her and it had jackknifed. So she was loaded with some stressed (thankfully mostly okay) horses as well. Could her stress level been so high as to cause this number to be out of range?
Thanks again, everyone in this group - extremely grateful for all of you!

Sharon Bice

--
Sharon Bice
December 2020    Sandia Park, New Mexico

Taillight's Case History:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Taillight%20Case%20History

Taillight's Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257590


Considerations for possibly buying a second PPID horse

naomi.dechaine@...
 

Hi all,

I saw an add for a horse that 'might have Cushings' - a 21yr old Morgan with reported slow hair loss and did founder 2 summers ago, after which they have dry lotted him and report no further foundering issues but did not get a diagnosis. But sounds like PPID and would need proper diagnosis and investigations of IR as well by new owner of inclined for care. I am waiting for more information from the owner but this gelding sounds like exactly the kind of animal I would love to add to our herd, kids horse/temperament etc etc. and this fall animals are going for much reduced price.
In general, do those of you with more than one PPID horse/pony find any advantage? I have a couple mini's I keep with my current PPID mare when kept off pasture, so she's not alone but I was thinking if I am doing all the supplementation, medicating, having vet out to do bloodwork etc for one maybe doing it for two will not be that much more work. More cost, but some of it shared. I can see that there would be pros and cons, just wondering what advice there might be of the challenges of having 2 that I might not be thinking of, or maybe that would have been deal breakers in hindsight 'had you known.'  

Better to think of those things now than after I fall in love and start to think any and all sacrifice will be worth it 🤠
--
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Naomi%20and%20Butterscotch
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264934


Re: Magnesium

Bobbie Day
 

Jackie you should sign up for Dr.K’s balancing courses, how do you know how much she needs? What I mean is how are you coming up with that amount?
That said like others I add 10g to all the diets I balance but you also need to take into account what her work load and her energy requirements.
I didn’t look but is your hay test results in your folder with all your pertinent information? Sorry if you’ve answered all this already and I missed it.

Bobbie and Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) 
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020 , NAT , C&IR March 2021


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Magnesium

Thurstonjs@...
 

Trying to figure the amount of magnesium to feed Rose, hope I did this correctly. She is being fed hay that has .28% magnesium,  .30% in the TC Timothy Balance cubes. She gets approximate 10 pounds of hay and 1 pound of the cubes daily. That comes to 3.10%. According to her weight requirements,  she should get 6.34 grams of magnesium daily. The magnesium I bought is 56% magnesium,  15.8 g magnesium per ounce, 1 T. = 1/2 Oz. OK, here's where I didn't write how I came up with this amount. I figured she needs 3.24 g a day, some how came up with 5.78 g by weight. She would get .46 T per day.

I truly don't know how to calculate this but did my best. That said, am reluctant to start giving her this amount until math savvy folks chime in 🙂.

Thank you!
--
Jackie Thurston
Suffolk, VA 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Rose

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268230


Re: Diet help

hollander8282@...
 

I thought I responded before, but maybe not.  It was not fasting.  I have not changed his diet as I my vet said not too, and I wasn’t positive it was necessary to start the emergency diet as he is not IR.  I am also hesitant to change too much with his compromise immune system.

The vet started him on 1mg and he stopped eating the grow and win.  He is currently getting 1/2 mg and still not eating grow and win, so now seems as good a time as any to start implementing a new diet.  

I guess my question is, since I can’t really test the hay will adding magnesium and flax and the cal trace meet his nutritional needs.  Also, the cosequin has helped with arthritis, is it important that be removed?  I will ask how much hay he is getting, but they feed by flakes not weight.  Thanks for any input. 
--
Rose Michele in Bucks County, PA
Joined in 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Files
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

Lorna Cane
 

Melanie ,it is doable ,taking hoof pix while your boy is down.

I had best success doing this when I laid a sheet,huge towel,or even one of those interlocking mats under the foot/leg being snapped.
Easier if you can get material under both,but one will do.
This keeps shavings away from your pic,and provides a more solid background for the shot.

You can take all angles,depending on how Remy feels about you gently straddling his leg,facing his hoof.
Sometimes , if it's possible, lifting the foot even slightly(propping up on rolled up towel (or whatever) allows a better view of whichever angle you are attempting to get.

Being a contortionist helps.


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Devils Claw and Equioxx

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Patty,

Can you put up as much as you have completed of Dancer's case history?  Then add to it as you have time?
This will help the volunteers advise you.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Worming question

Thurstonjs@...
 


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

melanie Schwartz
 

I have him on PQ powder.  It does not have the Devils Claw in it.  I have devils claw powder and boswalia Powder.  How much do i give?  Im always afraid of giving too much.  I have not tested him for Lyme.  Did not know that was a thing in Florida.  
--
MELANIE SCHWARTZ
DAVIE,  FLORIDA 33328
October 30, 2020
Remy's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melanie%20and%20Remy
Remys photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263092


Re: Devils Claw and Equioxx

Dancer's Mom
 

Or is it ok to use Equioxx and devils claw extract powder at the same time?
--
Patti
Northern California 2021


Re: Hay Analysis Interpretation and Updated Blood Test Questions

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melanie,

That iron is well above toxic levels. It may be mud that dried on the hay from getting rained on but it would definitely need to be rinsed and retested to see if those numbers came down substantially. If it did, you'd need to make sue that you rinsed all of it every time before feeding it as well. Protein is low, NDF is high, phos almost non-existent. I'd take a pass on that one.

The other two samples were tested via NIR (tells you on the bottom of the page) and the results are reported on a  Dry Matter basis, which means all the values will be somewhat lower As Fed. The starch is 7% on one, 6.8% on the other - that's almost double what you want in starch and you can't soak that out. Starch provides a much bigger "hit" as it gets digested 100% to glucose, while the ESC is only digested to 50%. They do list ESC at the very bottom as Sugars, which are quite low. Protein is sky high, esp. for grass hay, which may mean high nitrates. Again, I'd pass on these.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Devils Claw and Equioxx

Dancer's Mom
 

Dancer has been on Equioxx for 7 days and still has pain due to laminitis. Vet suggested keeping her on Equioxx but I want to wean her off of 1 Equioxx per day. Would I give her 1/2 pill for a couple days and not start devils claw till she isn’t on Equioxx? Or can I wean her on devils claw as suggested and wean her off Equioxx, at the same time?  Or what else for pain, might you suggest for her laminitis?  Thanks so much for your help.  Also, I completed a lot of Dancer’s case study and hopefully I can get it put into the system, really soon. 


--
Patti
Northern California 2021


Now: ECIR Group Policy - 10/02/2021 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

ECIR Group Policy

When:
10/02/2021

View Event

Description:

Accuracy of Information

We take the importance of accurate information very seriously. The information in our posts and case histories is of tremendous value to all our members and is also used for formal studies. It is extremely important that it be factual. To protect the integrity and veracity of the group's data, a member may be asked at times to produce documentation, such as a copy of a report. These requests will be rare. Most of you will never receive one. 

 

Solicitation is Against the ECIR Group's Policy:

Whether directly selling a product or service or not, if you are contacted privately by someone, be suspicious. These communications frequently target new members or those in a crisis.  They almost universally push a position, product or service that the sender knows will not be upheld under close examination.

 

We welcome questions, suggestions and individual experiences from every member, but the bottom line is the welfare of the horse. ECIR Group approval is always based on provable facts and scientific methods, not opinions and belief.

 

Anyone who tries to bypass being challenged to support their position with properly assembled facts by sending unsolicited private e-mails rather than posting in the messages is, in our opinion, risking the welfare of horses and will be banned.

 

If you receive an unsolicited e-mail either ask the group about it, or forward the mail to main+owner@ECIR.groups.io 

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

The Owners and Support Team of the ECIR Group

 


Re: Hay Analysis Interpretation and Updated Blood Test Questions

Sherry Morse
 

The rained on brome is so high in NDF in addition to the iron I would have passed on it.  You can try rinsing it and resending a sample in to see if that improves the iron amount but there's no guarantee that it will. As Dr. Gustafson has often said feeding this type of hay isn't always the best - or cheapest - option. You still need to consider it in your pounds per day of food and if Arrow only eats some of it but not all it makes that calculation even more complicated.

The other hays I'm guessing were tested via NIR and therefore are also both suspect for the sugar and NSC number (even knowing we don't usually look at that it's a bit high on both).  You can send samples to EA and have them just run the carb pack so you have a realistic idea of ESC+starch on both of those.

ACTH of 36.7 isn't bad for a PPID horse during the rise. As far as the crestiness and not losing weight are you weighing her hay now?  Based on an ideal weight of 875 she should be eating no more than 17.5lbs a day total (hay and concentrates) and you have her as eating 18lbs of hay plus 2 cups of timothy pellets.  So a reduction there to where she's actually eating the correct amount may show a change in her weight.  If it doesn't a further reduction might be in order until you find the sweet spot for her.


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