Date   

Re: Feeding Spirulina

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There is not enough vitamin E in Spirulina to make a difference.

There is one study showing decreased insulin and better IV glucose tolerance in EMS horses fed 1.5% of body weight in hay plus 500 grams (over 2 lbs) of a pellet with spirulina vs those fed 500 grams of a control pellet **but** the article did not reveal:
- diet before the experiment
- how much Spirulina was contained in the pellets
- what other ingredients were in the pellets both groups were fed
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Could someone tell me if the blood results could have been affected by sedative

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Carrie,

I suspect the numbers from April are all lower than they should be because the glucose was affected by poor handling (meaning the insulin and ACTH were, too) so none of those results are reliable, except you know that the true values were higher, including ACTH.  Sedative would also have affected these results but that is impossible to evaluate.

The effect of the sedative on the July results is hard to evaluate, too, because it is time-dependent from when the sedative was actually given.  Insulin is very low though, possibly low enough that regardless of sedative possibly lowering it, it was not alarmingly high to begin with.  That's just my supposition though.

It might be that you will have to take the effect of the sedative into account for all your ACTH results and always assume you're looking at a lower number than actual.  I would ensure the testing conditions don't change though.  So the same type and amount of sedative, given the same amount of time prior to blood pull, after the same meal, etc.  Keep everything as consistent as you can.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Magnesium

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

At 700 pounds, her NRC  recommended minimum intake is 4.8 grams. 150% of that (an insurance factor for lab error, etc.) is 7.2 g. You then have to also look at how much calcium and phosphorus she is getting to make sure ratios are OK.

The amount I calculated she is getting is elemental magnesium, plenty for basic minimums (above).

You can find the NRC Plus course here http://drkellon.com/coursedescriptions/nrcplus.html .There are two spots left for November. If you register for the course you get a free diet balancing with that.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: DEWORMING PROTOCOL FOR PPID GELDING

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Sue,

Yes, it is fine to do the 30 day Strongid pellets since you already have them.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Considerations for possibly buying a second PPID horse

Tracy
 

I only have one PPID horse and he has a donkey for a friend (only two critters in my pasture).  Medicine is my #1 concern as a PPID horse owner.  I can't find a vet (have called around) that will use compounded pergolide.  Prascend for two horses is a deal breaker for me.  If your current vet will use pergolide you're lucky - is your vet young or about to retire - could you lose that pergolide script for some reason? 
I'm having to raise Salsa's Prascend right now - and I love him so that's just the deal.  But the price of this medicine is painful.  It's just insult to injury that pergolide exists and I just can't *bleeping* get it.
On just one pill per day it's almost as much as a year's supply of hay for the two of them.  Increasing the amount of medicine puts it as my #1 horse expense and it will only ever climb.

Prascend is the reason I would never, ever own more than one PPID horse at a time.

--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: Magnesium

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Jackie,

The NRC requirement for minimum Mg is 0.015g Mg per kg body weight, at Maintenance (mature, non-exercising horse).  If Rose weighs 700 lbs, she is 318 kg.  318 kg x 0.015 g/kg = 4.77 g Mg.  Because that is a minimum, we add 50% because feeding minimum amounts is not optimal.  4.77 g × 150% = 7.155g.  As per Dr Kellon above, Rose's hay is supplying twice this amount so she is getting enough Mg and there is no frank deficiency in Mg.  However, you should also look at Ca and ensure the Ca:Mg ratio is 2:1.  Ideally the Ca in her hay will be approx 2x the Mg.  If it is not, then you might need to add Ca or Mg because a relative deficiency might still be present.  This is where paying the one time fee to have someone balance your hay for you is well worth it, because there are numerous ratios to check.  Or taking Dr Kellon's NRC Plus course, here:
http://www.drkellon.com/coursedescriptions.html

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Feeding Spirulina

Rita Chavez
 

A friend suggested adding Spirulina to Stetson’s diet, because it supports a healthy metabolic function and also has vit. E. Is anyone feeding it? Worth it? It’s not that pricey. I’m looking at the one offered by Mad Barn. https://madbarn.com/product/spirulina/?visited=1&fbclid=IwAR34gcJfgDe7FId8rHMVz3Xf795u9dk9oY4jJpyDu__EXon1YM9p1POTI2U_aem_AX9LASeIi-kMI1lgcYrL2Lm_UXG6RXTUi1-P7RzyHlxWiOFaMbBBILwbGO5l8meAWiVnExOYM_arg2Tz_HeLIQWDnmcYIVC6d2VrwUJXPiKGQY26wT7k9RkLsFk5jBSGtb8
--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: Diet help

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Rose,

Could you change the links in your signature? 

Your Case History folder is actually here:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rose%20and%20Vesper

And your photo album is actually here:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268195

The info in your first post ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/268931 ) should be added to the Comments section of your Case History since it's important detail.

The Emergency diet is intended for active cases of laminitis, or high insulin that puts a horse at risk of laminitis.  Vesper's insulin is elevated but nowhere near the danger zone so I do not think he should be on the Emergency diet.  I would continue doing what you are doing, but add the flax and vit E, and remove the Buckeye and replace it with California Trace.  Without testing the hay it's impossible to know if the CT will meet Vesper's nutritional needs, but it has no added iron (unlike the Buckeye G+W) and a decent amount of copper and zinc.  You can add Mg if you wish, but if the hay isn't low in Mg then there is no added benefit AND too much Mg can cause loose stools and interfere with Ca absorption.

Every time you check ACTH, make sure insulin and glucose are done, too.  If you start to see insulin creeping up then getting stricter about a low sugar diet will become more important.  For now, I don't see any harm in continuing the cosequin, but there are safer alternatives you can try instead if you wish to experiment a little.  Devil's Claw is our usual recommendation to start with.

Given the timing of Vesper's CBD, getting aggressive with the PPID and tightly controlling it with pergolide may help reduce the severity of the CBD.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Diet help

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Rose,

First, a bit of housekeeping. The link to Vesper's case history in your signature takes me to the general case history files, not to his actual folder. Here is the link to Vesper's case history:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rose%20and%20Vesper

Would you please update that in your signature.

Although the insulin result falls within the lab's reference range, Vesper's insulin does make him IR, although not at a level that would normally induce laminitis. When you plug his values into the EMS calculator, the results tell you he is EMS/IR:

https://www.ecirhorse.org/EMS-calculator.php

This may be driven by the elevated ACTH level to some degree. Either way, his diet should be tightened up and mineral balanced as that will help him overall even if he isn't EMS/IR at baseline. A compromised immune system will only be helped by mineral balancing his diet as it will provide him with all the building blocks he needs to support immune function, in the correct ratios so that he isn't deficient in some areas while being overloaded in others.

Although the hay changed frequently, do you know if it is coming from the same area or the same supplier? Would the barn allow you to purchase purchase and store several months worth of hay that is reserved for Vesper? You can figure out how much hay he is getting by weighing some of the flakes yourself. The CA Trace is a good general trace mineral supplement but whether it is a good match for your hay or not is unknown. It also doesn't address the major minerals calcium, phosphorus and magnesium. Flax is needed for all horse that aren't grazing large amounts of  quality pasture to provide the missing omega 3's in their diet. Salt is deficient in all equine diets unless it's supplemented and just providing a salt block isn't enough.

As he isn't having laminitis issues, and his insulin and glucose levels aren't critically elevated right now, stopping the Cosequin doesn't seem to be a priority.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Magnesium

Thurstonjs@...
 

Dr. Kellon, I really appreciate your time with this! I am trying to follow along here, so bear with me.

She weighs 700#'s. I found she needs 6.34 grams a day. The amount she is currently receiving that you figured correctly, is that elemental grams? Or is she already receiving enough?

And where can I find your course?

Kindest,
--
Jackie Thurston
Suffolk, VA 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Rose

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268230


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Melanie,

Not wanting to be touched does NOT mean ulcers. It means he doesn't feel well for some reason.

How long did he have diarrhea? Has his temperature ever been checked when not on NSAIDs? Any recent blood counts? Why are you forcing him to take Banamine?

Lyme definitely is a thing in Florida. Less common would be Potomac Horse Fever but that can cause severe laminitis too and fits with the diarrhea. Both can be treated with oral doxycycline.

We're talking about these things because something is causing this, and it isn't high insulin. Top two contenders IMO are infection/collections trapped in the feet, and/or a systemic infection.

You asked about new radiographs. I would at least get a lateral of the RF. Also check a CBC and start monitoring his temperature twice a day once off NSAIDs.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Devils Claw and Equioxx

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It's OK to overlap for a few days while weaning but not long term.

The only way to get rid of laminitis pain is to remove the cause (and make sure trim is appropriate). Equioxx and DC don't do that.

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Considerations for possibly buying a second PPID horse

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

You can figure out how much your baseline costs will go up. Also factor in a contingency amount just in case he does get laminitic at some point. What struck me the most though was the description of his temperament. He may very well truly be a kind, kid-proof horse but many PPID/subclinical laminitis horses have behavior changes in that they are much more active and lively after they are properly treated. Some horses are exactly the opposite, sour and aggressive when in pain, sweet and kind when treated. Just something to consider.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Recent bloodwork seeking help understanding it….

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The shipping experience may have had an effect, but not to that extent. The longer the shipping time, the smaller the effect on ACTH.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Magnesium

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Jackie,

Requirements are both by weight and by what it takes to keep minerals in balance.

Not sure where you came up with that 3.10% number (? multiplied by pounds?) but that's not correct. % is a description, like color. If a jar of jelly beans are all purple, one of them is purple too. If a gallon of chocolate milk has 5% chocolate syrup, a glass of it has 5% chocolate syrup too. Your hay is 0.28% magnesium whether it's 5 lbs or 50 lbs.

You have to change pounds to kg, change kg to grams then multiply by percent as a decimal. She is getting 12.7 g from the hay and 1.4 g from the cubes.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Recent bloodwork seeking help understanding it….

Sharon Bice
 

Thank you very much, Lavinia! She was hauled to the vet for the test :( (but next time they will take the bloodwork themselves and get it to the vet - they are a few hours from a vet :( . But during the haul to the vet there were some horses loaded with her that were in the trailer ahead of her and it had jackknifed. So she was loaded with some stressed (thankfully mostly okay) horses as well. Could her stress level been so high as to cause this number to be out of range?
Thanks again, everyone in this group - extremely grateful for all of you!

Sharon Bice

--
Sharon Bice
December 2020    Sandia Park, New Mexico

Taillight's Case History:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Taillight%20Case%20History

Taillight's Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257590


Considerations for possibly buying a second PPID horse

naomi.dechaine@...
 

Hi all,

I saw an add for a horse that 'might have Cushings' - a 21yr old Morgan with reported slow hair loss and did founder 2 summers ago, after which they have dry lotted him and report no further foundering issues but did not get a diagnosis. But sounds like PPID and would need proper diagnosis and investigations of IR as well by new owner of inclined for care. I am waiting for more information from the owner but this gelding sounds like exactly the kind of animal I would love to add to our herd, kids horse/temperament etc etc. and this fall animals are going for much reduced price.
In general, do those of you with more than one PPID horse/pony find any advantage? I have a couple mini's I keep with my current PPID mare when kept off pasture, so she's not alone but I was thinking if I am doing all the supplementation, medicating, having vet out to do bloodwork etc for one maybe doing it for two will not be that much more work. More cost, but some of it shared. I can see that there would be pros and cons, just wondering what advice there might be of the challenges of having 2 that I might not be thinking of, or maybe that would have been deal breakers in hindsight 'had you known.'  

Better to think of those things now than after I fall in love and start to think any and all sacrifice will be worth it 🤠
--
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Naomi%20and%20Butterscotch
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264934


Re: Magnesium

Bobbie Day
 

Jackie you should sign up for Dr.K’s balancing courses, how do you know how much she needs? What I mean is how are you coming up with that amount?
That said like others I add 10g to all the diets I balance but you also need to take into account what her work load and her energy requirements.
I didn’t look but is your hay test results in your folder with all your pertinent information? Sorry if you’ve answered all this already and I missed it.

Bobbie and Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) 
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020 , NAT , C&IR March 2021


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Magnesium

Thurstonjs@...
 

Trying to figure the amount of magnesium to feed Rose, hope I did this correctly. She is being fed hay that has .28% magnesium,  .30% in the TC Timothy Balance cubes. She gets approximate 10 pounds of hay and 1 pound of the cubes daily. That comes to 3.10%. According to her weight requirements,  she should get 6.34 grams of magnesium daily. The magnesium I bought is 56% magnesium,  15.8 g magnesium per ounce, 1 T. = 1/2 Oz. OK, here's where I didn't write how I came up with this amount. I figured she needs 3.24 g a day, some how came up with 5.78 g by weight. She would get .46 T per day.

I truly don't know how to calculate this but did my best. That said, am reluctant to start giving her this amount until math savvy folks chime in 🙂.

Thank you!
--
Jackie Thurston
Suffolk, VA 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Rose

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268230


Re: Diet help

hollander8282@...
 

I thought I responded before, but maybe not.  It was not fasting.  I have not changed his diet as I my vet said not too, and I wasn’t positive it was necessary to start the emergency diet as he is not IR.  I am also hesitant to change too much with his compromise immune system.

The vet started him on 1mg and he stopped eating the grow and win.  He is currently getting 1/2 mg and still not eating grow and win, so now seems as good a time as any to start implementing a new diet.  

I guess my question is, since I can’t really test the hay will adding magnesium and flax and the cal trace meet his nutritional needs.  Also, the cosequin has helped with arthritis, is it important that be removed?  I will ask how much hay he is getting, but they feed by flakes not weight.  Thanks for any input. 
--
Rose Michele in Bucks County, PA
Joined in 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Files
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album

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