Date   

Re: Considerations for possibly buying a second PPID horse

Sherry Morse
 

I agree with all the points Dr. Kellon made as far as the horse perhaps not being quite so perfect once he's feeling better. You also need to consider that the cost of Prascend will only go up with 2 horses and I'm not sure where you're thinking there will be cost savings for having the vet run bloodwork for 2 horses vs. 1.  The tests cost what they cost no matter how many you run and the cost for a blood draw is the same per horse unless you have a very generous vet who will charge you less for some reason but they still need to cover the cost of their supplies and time for doing the blood draw and processing for testing.




Re: Senior Gelding - first Endogenous ACTH Test

StaceyMaloney
 

Thank you for the replies. Prascend has been ordered from my veterinarian for pick up next week. 

Is Island Pharmacy a compounding pharmacy?
--
Stacey M. 

Central Alberta, Canada
Joined 2019


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

melanie Schwartz
 

Ok, so if i take him of the gastrogard. I have to taper him correct?  With the banamine i can just swap out with the devils claw correct?  Im not forcing him to stay on banamine.  Its just i notice he feels better on it.  Im sorry its hard to see him in pain.  It hurts my heart soo much.  
--
MELANIE SCHWARTZ
DAVIE,  FLORIDA 33328
October 30, 2020
Remy's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melanie%20and%20Remy
Remys photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263092


Re: Magnesium

Lorin
 

What are the dates in November?
also, when are the next available dates for the NRC plus course after that?
thank you!
--
Lorin in NH and SC. Joined September 2016


Re: Remy is getting Laminitis again and I don't know why

melanie Schwartz
 

Ok.  So do you think he has sunk too low on the right? My new farrier thinks he will never be even pasture sound.  What do you think?   I ordered new xrays and venogram.  Ill post when i get them. Im happy to pay for your time. If you want consult outside of this forum.  Thanks
--
MELANIE SCHWARTZ. 9545575885
DAVIE,  FLORIDA 33328
October 30, 2020
Remy's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melanie%20and%20Remy
Remys photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263092


Re: Recent bloodwork seeking help understanding it….

Sharon Bice
 

Thank you Elanor! We will increase from 1 to 1 & 1/4 hopefully that is enough - do you just have to play with the dosage and retest so many weeks later? Is there a write up somewhere on protocol or does it really depend on the individual horse?


Sharon Bice

--
Sharon Bice
December 2020    Sandia Park, New Mexico

Taillight's Case History:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Taillight%20Case%20History

Taillight's Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257590


Abscesses

dr.kellylear@...
 

Hello everyone, 
Saddie’s left front foot had an abscess open up
in the sole a week ago today and it is still draining. I change the bandage almost everyday. Yesterday I noticed she she seeming more sore on her right front so I am not sure if she is getting an abscess on that foot now too or if something else is going on? 

She spends all her time laying down. The only time she gets up is to switch what side she is laying on. I feel like I am failing her….I don’t know why she isn’t getting better. 
Kelly 
--

 

Kelly Lear in Texas 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Saddie

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=267371


Re: weight gain #photo

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Annette, I would do both CBC and blood chemistry, plus ACTH.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Magnesium

Thurstonjs@...
 

Thank you once again, Dr. Kellon! I will take a look at the course!


On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 02:19 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:At 700 pounds, her NRC  recommended minimum intake is 4.8 grams. 150% of that (an insurance factor for lab error, etc.) is 7.2 g. You then have to also look at how much calcium and phosphorus she is getting to make sure ratios are OK.

The amount I calculated she is getting is elemental magnesium, plenty for basic minimums (above).

You can find the NRC Plus course here http://drkellon.com/coursedescriptions/nrcplus.html .There are two spots left for November. If you register for the course you get a free diet balancing with that.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


 
--
Jackie Thurston
Suffolk, VA 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Rose

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268230


Re: DEWORMING PROTOCOL FOR PPID GELDING

 

If you have a kitchen gram scale, I suggest you  “calibrate” the measure enclosed in the Strongid bucket. The measures in my buckets under-weigh the recommended dosages for both my horses. IOW the markings on the side were inaccurate in estimating the weight of the pellets printed on the measure. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Feeding Spirulina

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There is not enough vitamin E in Spirulina to make a difference.

There is one study showing decreased insulin and better IV glucose tolerance in EMS horses fed 1.5% of body weight in hay plus 500 grams (over 2 lbs) of a pellet with spirulina vs those fed 500 grams of a control pellet **but** the article did not reveal:
- diet before the experiment
- how much Spirulina was contained in the pellets
- what other ingredients were in the pellets both groups were fed
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Could someone tell me if the blood results could have been affected by sedative

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Carrie,

I suspect the numbers from April are all lower than they should be because the glucose was affected by poor handling (meaning the insulin and ACTH were, too) so none of those results are reliable, except you know that the true values were higher, including ACTH.  Sedative would also have affected these results but that is impossible to evaluate.

The effect of the sedative on the July results is hard to evaluate, too, because it is time-dependent from when the sedative was actually given.  Insulin is very low though, possibly low enough that regardless of sedative possibly lowering it, it was not alarmingly high to begin with.  That's just my supposition though.

It might be that you will have to take the effect of the sedative into account for all your ACTH results and always assume you're looking at a lower number than actual.  I would ensure the testing conditions don't change though.  So the same type and amount of sedative, given the same amount of time prior to blood pull, after the same meal, etc.  Keep everything as consistent as you can.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Magnesium

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

At 700 pounds, her NRC  recommended minimum intake is 4.8 grams. 150% of that (an insurance factor for lab error, etc.) is 7.2 g. You then have to also look at how much calcium and phosphorus she is getting to make sure ratios are OK.

The amount I calculated she is getting is elemental magnesium, plenty for basic minimums (above).

You can find the NRC Plus course here http://drkellon.com/coursedescriptions/nrcplus.html .There are two spots left for November. If you register for the course you get a free diet balancing with that.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: DEWORMING PROTOCOL FOR PPID GELDING

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Sue,

Yes, it is fine to do the 30 day Strongid pellets since you already have them.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Considerations for possibly buying a second PPID horse

Tracy
 

I only have one PPID horse and he has a donkey for a friend (only two critters in my pasture).  Medicine is my #1 concern as a PPID horse owner.  I can't find a vet (have called around) that will use compounded pergolide.  Prascend for two horses is a deal breaker for me.  If your current vet will use pergolide you're lucky - is your vet young or about to retire - could you lose that pergolide script for some reason? 
I'm having to raise Salsa's Prascend right now - and I love him so that's just the deal.  But the price of this medicine is painful.  It's just insult to injury that pergolide exists and I just can't *bleeping* get it.
On just one pill per day it's almost as much as a year's supply of hay for the two of them.  Increasing the amount of medicine puts it as my #1 horse expense and it will only ever climb.

Prascend is the reason I would never, ever own more than one PPID horse at a time.

--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: Magnesium

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Jackie,

The NRC requirement for minimum Mg is 0.015g Mg per kg body weight, at Maintenance (mature, non-exercising horse).  If Rose weighs 700 lbs, she is 318 kg.  318 kg x 0.015 g/kg = 4.77 g Mg.  Because that is a minimum, we add 50% because feeding minimum amounts is not optimal.  4.77 g × 150% = 7.155g.  As per Dr Kellon above, Rose's hay is supplying twice this amount so she is getting enough Mg and there is no frank deficiency in Mg.  However, you should also look at Ca and ensure the Ca:Mg ratio is 2:1.  Ideally the Ca in her hay will be approx 2x the Mg.  If it is not, then you might need to add Ca or Mg because a relative deficiency might still be present.  This is where paying the one time fee to have someone balance your hay for you is well worth it, because there are numerous ratios to check.  Or taking Dr Kellon's NRC Plus course, here:
http://www.drkellon.com/coursedescriptions.html

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Feeding Spirulina

Rita Chavez
 

A friend suggested adding Spirulina to Stetson’s diet, because it supports a healthy metabolic function and also has vit. E. Is anyone feeding it? Worth it? It’s not that pricey. I’m looking at the one offered by Mad Barn. https://madbarn.com/product/spirulina/?visited=1&fbclid=IwAR34gcJfgDe7FId8rHMVz3Xf795u9dk9oY4jJpyDu__EXon1YM9p1POTI2U_aem_AX9LASeIi-kMI1lgcYrL2Lm_UXG6RXTUi1-P7RzyHlxWiOFaMbBBILwbGO5l8meAWiVnExOYM_arg2Tz_HeLIQWDnmcYIVC6d2VrwUJXPiKGQY26wT7k9RkLsFk5jBSGtb8
--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: Diet help

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Rose,

Could you change the links in your signature? 

Your Case History folder is actually here:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rose%20and%20Vesper

And your photo album is actually here:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268195

The info in your first post ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/268931 ) should be added to the Comments section of your Case History since it's important detail.

The Emergency diet is intended for active cases of laminitis, or high insulin that puts a horse at risk of laminitis.  Vesper's insulin is elevated but nowhere near the danger zone so I do not think he should be on the Emergency diet.  I would continue doing what you are doing, but add the flax and vit E, and remove the Buckeye and replace it with California Trace.  Without testing the hay it's impossible to know if the CT will meet Vesper's nutritional needs, but it has no added iron (unlike the Buckeye G+W) and a decent amount of copper and zinc.  You can add Mg if you wish, but if the hay isn't low in Mg then there is no added benefit AND too much Mg can cause loose stools and interfere with Ca absorption.

Every time you check ACTH, make sure insulin and glucose are done, too.  If you start to see insulin creeping up then getting stricter about a low sugar diet will become more important.  For now, I don't see any harm in continuing the cosequin, but there are safer alternatives you can try instead if you wish to experiment a little.  Devil's Claw is our usual recommendation to start with.

Given the timing of Vesper's CBD, getting aggressive with the PPID and tightly controlling it with pergolide may help reduce the severity of the CBD.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Diet help

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Rose,

First, a bit of housekeeping. The link to Vesper's case history in your signature takes me to the general case history files, not to his actual folder. Here is the link to Vesper's case history:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rose%20and%20Vesper

Would you please update that in your signature.

Although the insulin result falls within the lab's reference range, Vesper's insulin does make him IR, although not at a level that would normally induce laminitis. When you plug his values into the EMS calculator, the results tell you he is EMS/IR:

https://www.ecirhorse.org/EMS-calculator.php

This may be driven by the elevated ACTH level to some degree. Either way, his diet should be tightened up and mineral balanced as that will help him overall even if he isn't EMS/IR at baseline. A compromised immune system will only be helped by mineral balancing his diet as it will provide him with all the building blocks he needs to support immune function, in the correct ratios so that he isn't deficient in some areas while being overloaded in others.

Although the hay changed frequently, do you know if it is coming from the same area or the same supplier? Would the barn allow you to purchase purchase and store several months worth of hay that is reserved for Vesper? You can figure out how much hay he is getting by weighing some of the flakes yourself. The CA Trace is a good general trace mineral supplement but whether it is a good match for your hay or not is unknown. It also doesn't address the major minerals calcium, phosphorus and magnesium. Flax is needed for all horse that aren't grazing large amounts of  quality pasture to provide the missing omega 3's in their diet. Salt is deficient in all equine diets unless it's supplemented and just providing a salt block isn't enough.

As he isn't having laminitis issues, and his insulin and glucose levels aren't critically elevated right now, stopping the Cosequin doesn't seem to be a priority.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Magnesium

Thurstonjs@...
 

Dr. Kellon, I really appreciate your time with this! I am trying to follow along here, so bear with me.

She weighs 700#'s. I found she needs 6.34 grams a day. The amount she is currently receiving that you figured correctly, is that elemental grams? Or is she already receiving enough?

And where can I find your course?

Kindest,
--
Jackie Thurston
Suffolk, VA 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Rose

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268230

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