Date   

Re: Pain relief for Chicy - 2nd Request

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You don't need to give her anything for pain just because she has changes on radiographs. You said she's walking great.  Worry about pain if she actually shows any.

Psyllium is fine as long as it's unsweetened.

A little Stabul 1 won't meet her pregnancy protein needs. You need a nutritional consultation.

There can be mammary changes with PPID and they should go away in time. Let your vet know if there is any heat.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Dr. Kellon - thoughts on use of Joagulan for Pilgrim

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Suzanne,

Thanks for adding the latest rads.

You're correct that his toes are out ahead of where they should be. Soles are thin and heels are underrun all around. Fronts have a slightly broken back HPA while the hinds have ground parallel coffin bones.

Let me know when you have the photos up and the date of the farrier's appt, please.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Winter Coat is not coming in as usual

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Mine are sort of the opposite..Vinnie only formally diagnosed PPID this year was IR first, has grown the marathon coat the last two years.  Previously, he has a tight coat through December and then grew a slight winter coat but never enough to clip.  This year I clipped super early in Sept, and could clip again in reality.  He has guard hairs too.  


Summer grew a coat last year..she was unmanaged PPID and her first year diagnosed, she also IR. She shed really late this year after a couple health scares in May... but this winter she is back to her normal very slight winter  but super dappled pretty coat.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Dr. Kellon - thoughts on use of Joagulan for Pilgrim

Suzanne and Pilgrim
 

I recently posted xrays of Pilgrim’s last trim. They illustrate that his toes are long. I hope to take photos tomorrow to send to Lavinia for markups before the farrier returns next week. 

Lately Pilgrim has become dangerously spooky. This came about overnight. I now suspect that he has been becoming increasingly foot sore since the spring. I will be putting him in boots starting tomorrow. 

Pilgrim has recently been diagnosed with PPID and he is only 12!  He is an extremely easy keeper and is constantly ravenously hungry. I work hard at trying to keep weight off him. The flies proved to make him highly reactive this summer - more so than in previous years. So bugs, extreme heat and then a 3rd suspensory injury (luckily only a strain) prevented us to from moving and exercising as much as we wanted this summer   Pilgrim’s eyes have also started tearing a lot  about à year ago. 

I’m wondering if some Joagulan in Pilgrim’s supplements could help regulate sugars,  reduce his cortisol and 
skin sensitivities  Currently I am giving him a daily dose of insulin Wise hoping to counter any increase in his sugars should that occur  

I just saw that there is no true evidence that Insulin Wise has that desirable action. Could I substitute some Joagulan for Insulin Wise? 


--


Pain relief for Chicy - 2nd Request

Qhgirl
 

Chicy (in foal) has arthritis on a rear sesamoid area where she was kicked by another horse years ago and a big piece of sesamoid broke off. It is still attached to the tendon. The surgery required cutting the tendon so I made the decision to pass on the surgery since she was not lame. But ex rays and ultra sounds showed arthritis in that area the last time ex rayed a year after the injury. And also arthritis is present in one of the ex rays of her front feet. 

Since an in foal PPID mare cannot have herbal pain relief of any kind then what can I give her that will not cause other issues?

Couple more questions:  Chicy has gas. Always has had much more than other horses. I have a lot of sand here. She sand coliced a few years ago and a board certified vet who took care of her advised me to treat her and all my horses with psyllium 7 consecutive days every month. I use Vera Cruz psyllium powder which is 100% psyllium husks. Is it okay for Chicy being in foal and PPID to have psyllium?

I ordered some Stabul 1 banana flavored for her. Plan to use it to give her Prescend to her. And also as a back up for the TC Timothy balance cubes in case she stops eating those as she sometimes leaves a lot uneaten.

Would the Stabul 1 Plus be something I can feed her as her pregnancy progresses for more protein for the fetus?

One last question. Just before Chicy foundered her left mammary gland became very hard. Will if soften up to normal after she is on Prascend a while longer?  This has concerned me as she needs them to nurse. Is it painful for her?  Today is her 12th day on Prascend and 4th day to have 1 mg. Her ears were not forward and her demeanor less interested than what is going on around her. She is on 10 ml ATF daily but we are nearing the end of the bottle. Isn't APF just to get one started on Prascend?  I hand walked her this afternoon and she seemed to perk up a bit. Seemed energetic and happy to have a change of scenery. She walks great with her Trek boots on. 

Thank you for your help and sorry to have so many questions  

--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Re: Story won't eat supplements

Jennifer Green
 

I get fenugreek powder from here https://www.herbalcom.com/

my boy also likes the Stabul 1 fenugreek pellets :)
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Re: Winter Coat is not coming in as usual

Karen Anderson
 

Hi Linda:   A few years ago my 20 yr old Hanoverian gelding (PPID but not IR) did not grow any coat over the winter after being clipped in October.  I was shocked. He was not uncomfortable as he runs "hot."  We are in Maryland and while he wore his medium weight blanket, he only needed the heavy weight for a few frigid days/nights that year. 

I have increased his compounded pergolide over time and he is now at 5 mg/day and he is growing a little coat. 

To sum up, while this may not be a normal sign of PPID, it was for my horse. 

Karen Anderson

 

--
Karen and Fhinland in Maryland

Case Study:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Fhinland


Re: Help with newly diagnosed horse with PPID -- higher meds or different management?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Laura,

The answer is "it depends on the horse".  Some horses can't even tolerate hay that's close to 10% and will start showing discomfort within hours of eating it.  If your hay is over 10% ESC+starch I would be soaking that hay.  Even if your hay is under 10% if your horse is showing any signs of discomfort soaking is the first thing to try to see if that helps.




Re: Sherry/ got info from Guelph re: Adjusted Listing for ACTH during seasonal rise

Suzanne and Pilgrim
 

Hi Sherry,

I called Guelph today.  The info I got from the Oct 20 testing was the following:  "The equine endogenous ACTH reference interval (2-10) reflects values obtained in mid to late summer, prior to the expected seasonal Fall) increase seen in this species.  Please refer to the AHL Lab Note #56-Equine PPID and EMS testing-for further details.  (I'm pretty sure that is just a generic statement in all reports.)

The following info is what I gleaned from Lab Note #56. I'm not sure if that is what you were requesting...

A "seasonal increase" in ACTH has been documented during the fall months, with median concentrations ~2 times the upper reference limit (although some healthy horses showed significantly higher values.  This seasonal increase has an impact in the interpretation of lab results.  Reference intervals at the AHL  (2-10 pmol/L) were developed outside the seasonal rise; thus, as an example, an ACTH result of 18 pmol/L could be unremarkable in the fall but would be interpreted as increased for the remainder of the year.  The seasonal rise in ACTH may also be exaggerated  in early PPID, increasing the sensitivity of the test, however seasonally adjusted reference intervals would be required for accurate interpretation.
--


Re: Ziva's ongoing laminitis

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Karrie,

The dose of metformin is 30mg/kg 2x a day - that works out to 12, 587mg twice a day for a horse that weighs 925lbs (419.573kg).  If your compounded dose is 26,000mg per tablespoon you need to give a half tablespoon 2x a day.




Re: Updated case history - ACTH in normal range after increased Prascend #file-notice

Mary Ann
 

I also forgot to mention this blood test was taken without using sedation. 
--
Mary Ann & Rosie - Nova Scotia, Canada - Joined August 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252134
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20Ann%20and%20Rosie


Re: Winter Coat is not coming in as usual

Nancy C
 

Hi Linda

My QH Skip -- PPID not IR -- always grew a great winter coat until two years ago when he was diagnosed as PPID.  Even though he is now controlled I have to blanket him at @ 32 degrees  F or he is shivering.  His coat is just not what it was when he was younger and without PPID.  He does hold his winter coat a little longer in the spring.  I test him minimum twice a year to make sure he is controlled in the teens.
__
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021

Recordings of the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference released to attendees 09.03.21.
Veterinary Professional CE certification hours submitted to AAVSB Race 09.08.21


Re: Now: Commercial Feed Analysis Library - 11/08/2021 #cal-notice

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Janet,

A single sample cannot compare to the accuracy of the bulk sampling of hays that is done before these cubes are made. I take the results of the hay and beet pulp samplings, and add a factor for machine iron in balancing the cubes.

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Ziva's ongoing laminitis

Karrie
 

Ziva's compounded Metformin arrived on Friday. She actually likes it! I have a question about the dosage. She weighs approximately 925 pounds. When I was giving her the pills, she was taking 12 pills two times per day (1000 mg each) for a total of 26,000 mg. My vet just told me that the compounded is 26,000 mg per tablespoon. Should I give her 1 tablespoon once a day (which is what my vet recommended), or 1/2 tablespoon two times per day? 

The compounded Metformin is way more expensive than the Metformin pills. My vet tried to find out what apple flavoring they use, but she didn't have any luck. I could make my own for way cheaper in my food processor. I searched the files briefly for an apple flavoring, but haven't found any yet. Any recommendations on where to buy some? I would like it in powder form. I've tried the Uckele liquid flavorings, and she won't eat them.
--
Karrie
May 2018, Audrain County, MO

Frankie (over the bridge) and Ziva's Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karrie%20and%20Frankie%20-%20Ziva 
Frankie's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=55533
Ziva's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=55539


Re: Now: Commercial Feed Analysis Library - 11/08/2021 #cal-notice

Qhgirl
 

Interesting.  Noticing the TC Timothy Balance cubes from one analysis to another the iron.  In the 2020 most recent one the iron is sky high, yet I understand these are safe to feed as a complete diet.  Can somone please help me understand why they are considered safe with such high iron?
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Winter Coat is not coming in as usual

Starshine Ranch
 

Before my horses got PPID, they grew wonderful winter coats, Stara, especially.  Then for a few years starting around 2015, they continued to grow winter coats as normal but they grew an extra coat in late spring which they shed late summer.  This went on for a few years, with the exception of one year,2018, until they were diagnosed in late 2019 and I started them on Prascend and now liquid Pergolide.  At first, after the Prascend/pergolide, their coats grew and shed as normal but this year their coats are not growing in enough.  They are a bit longer than a summer coat but not nearly as long as their regular winter coat has been in the past.  Has anyone else seen this?
--
Linda in CA  2020  Midnight and Ostara
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Linda%20Midnight%20OStara


Re: Help with newly diagnosed horse with PPID -- higher meds or different management?

Laura Caplins
 

If Dandy ends up getting too much sugar in his hay/rations/grass etc what is the response time between when he eats 'too much sugar' and when it shows up as discomfort in his body or feet? I am having a hard time identifying triggers for him and thus weighing different management choices. 

Also, I was clearly reading my hay analysis incorrectly. Thank you for the connection. If I am aiming for 10% or less of combined ESC and Starch and my hay comes in at 10.5% - 11% (MT is currently experiencing a MASSIVE hay shortage, and I am frankly shocked I was able to get hay this low) how dramatically bad is this hay? Clearly less than 10% is better, but how 'bad' is slightly higher hay? Im trying to understand the relative nature of increasing ESC/Starch numbers. Is it a exponentially negatively bad relationship after 10%? Linear relationship? Is 10% a tipping point?

Thank you. 
Laura

--
Laura C in Montana 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Dandy


locked Re: rice bran

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

All rice bran is much too high in sugar and starch, likely high arsenic, loaded with proinflammatory omega-6 fatty acids and perpetuates the common low copper and zinc, high manganese mineral profile. Why feed it?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


locked rice bran

Daisy Shepherd
 

is there a safe brand of rice bran about 4 oz per day for the ir horse. thanks, daisy, tiko, whisper
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Story won't eat supplements

Michele Einarson
 

I get fenugreek on Amazon.  search for "Kasoori Methi" to get the herb used in Indian cooking.  Much cheaper than as a health supplement.  https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=kasoori+methi&rh=n%3A724714011&ref=nb_sb_noss
--
Michele & Mosey IR, Feb 2019
Reno, NV, USA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Michele%20and%20Mosey
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=88791

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