Date   

Re: New to the group, new to laminitis

Wilmary
 

I figured it must’ve been something along those lines, thank you Sherry! 
--
Wilmary in southern, AZ, USA, 2021

David Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Wilmary%20and%20David


Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270201


Re: Alternate drug to Metformin

ferne fedeli
 

My horse has been on Metformin for 4 or 5 months now & I grind it up in an old Braun coffee grinder & mix it in his supps in soaked ODTB Cubes & some Stabul1 w/some Cavalor FibreForce on top & he licks his plate clean!!!  So interesting how horses have such different tastes, just like humans...

--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 


Blue's Case History

Montanaskw@...
 

Hi,

I'm following up on a couple of items.  

  • I believe Lavina was going to mark up Blue's photos for his next trim.  I haven't seen a note from Lavina to say this is done.  Am I looking in the wrong place for the mark ups?
  • I sent my hay analysis to an ECIR balancer on November 20 but I haven't heard back.  Can you tell me if this has been done?  Am I looking in the wrong place for her recommendations?

Thanks for your help!
--
-Sarah
Bozeman Montana 2021

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sarah%20and%20Blue
Hay Analysis:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sarah%20and%20Blue/Hay%20Analysis%20Native%20Grass.pdf 
Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=269885


Re: biotin100/ nanric

 

Happy Thanksgiving to you, as well, Daisy.  That supplement does have some corn in it but it’s a very small amount you’re using so that might not be important, depending on your horse.  The amount recommended appears to be about 5x what others sell in terms of both biotin and methionine but I don’t know if it’s 5x as effective.  
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Alternate drug to Metformin

 

Hi Kandace,
I don’t know whether or not you were mistaken but metformin has been shown to have decreased effectiveness with time.  I’m sure this will vary from horse to horse.  We recommend doing everything possible with diet to bring insulin down and saving metformin for truly obstinate cases.  Once the metformin option is no longer working, the next step is invokana.  The drug your pharmacist friend recommended is for diabetic people.  It acts to bring blood sugar down.  What we’re looking to control is horses is insulin levels.  The blood sugar is generally in range.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


biotin100/ nanric

Daisy Shepherd
 

is this an ok hoof supplement for the IR horse?  thank you, happy thanksgiving, daisy, tiko,whisper
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Skipping Pergolide Doses

 

Can you find a veterinarian who sells Prascend? 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Skipping Pergolide Doses

larkstabatha
 

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!  I messed up and did not order my Pergolide refills in time for the holiday weekend.  My mail order, compounding pharmacy is closed today and Friday.

I did do multiple searches with quotes and the plus sign, but did not find an answer to this question:  Rather than skipping dosing two days in a row of their pergolide, would it be better to skip one day to make the medication I have on hand last longer?

Thanks very much, Sally
--
Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 

  

 

 


Re: Vitamin E for IR horse and non IR horse

 
Edited

It’s an **emergency** temporary diet. 2000 IU should avoid a frank deficiency. After that, the diet should be balanced. We don’t know why some horses store plenty of Vitamin E, others not so much. Like many here, I’ve taken the NRCPlus course to try understand my horses’ nutritional needs. For a number of nutrients, including Vitamin E, there’s a range of safe supplementation. Those ranges aren’t the central focus of this group. If you search Messages, you’ll see many discussions of Vitamin E that delve into some of it.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Vitamin E for IR horse and non IR horse

Candice Piraino
 

Thanks Cass!

Judy- those recommendations are at a minimum, AND another reason why we prefer to review case histories to get an over all picture. Not every horse reacts the same or absorbs the same so it is difficult to cover EVERY horse with a blanket statement. You are correct in saying that a horse on the emergency diet should NOT be on grass, which is a hard concept for many to swallow! Maybe Dr. Kellon will chime in soon to expand more.
--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History

Shark's Photo Album 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: Vitamin E for IR horse and non IR horse

Judy and Bugsy
 

Thanks Cass.

if the recommended Vitamin E  is 4000-5000 iu of vitamin E why is the emergency diet  only 2000 iu (for 1000 lb horse)? A horse who is on the emergency diet should not be on pasture, so that shouldn’t play a role in Vitamin E intake. 
--

 

Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

 




Alternate drug to Metformin

Kandace Krause
 

Hello all,
I stopped Metformin after approx. 2.5 - 3 months last late winter as getting horse to injest it was an impossible task and I (mis)understood that it should be used to get Insulin down, and then discontinued as it eventually becomes in effective.  
Today I have read in a post that it is "for life".
Was I mistaken in the reduced effectiveness of this difficult drug?
Also, I was speaking to a friend, pharmasist and horse owner, and he asked about using "Ozempic" a weekly injectable, instead of a daily 54 pill thing.
Has any research been done or started on this?  I have emailed him back to see if this drug is same class as Metformin but haven't heard back yet.
--
Kandace K
Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259062


Re: New to the group, new to laminitis

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Wilmary,

ACTH can be elevated by the stress of trailering as well as being in a new situation so waiting a few weeks to test isn't a bad idea.  The Phytoquench sold by Valley Vet is made by Uckele but you want the pelleted version with Devi's Claw for pain relief.




Re: New to the group, new to laminitis

Wilmary
 

Thank you all for the encouragement and support. I’m still looking to get a new vet here but I’ve had a hard time just getting through to anyone. I asked for acth test and insulin test to be done right away while she was here but was told to let him adjust for a month before we do anything. (Not sure of the reasoning behind it.) 

Theres a phytoquench without devils claw on valleyvet.com I’ve never ordered from them but it’s the only one I can find in stock. Is it just as good? Or are they not a legitimate site? Pricing seems off to me. 
--
Wilmary in southern, AZ, USA, 2021

David Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Wilmary%20and%20David


Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270201


Re: Chicy PPID In Foal Trim Pictures at 2 months Lavinia

Sherry Morse
 

I would suggest looking at your current post trim pictures side by side with the markups Lavinia had done for you and compare them to see if you're closer to where you need to be. 




Re: Lethargic since July

Kandace Krause
 

This is very informative Cass, I have not read this but find more in what I missed every time I read through the files.
--
Kandace K
Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259062


Re: Chicy PPID In Foal Trim Pictures at 2 months Lavinia

 

Hi Janet,
I’m going to leave the response to Lavinia but I’m interested to know what happens when you switch to a few farrier.  Did you review the Xrays and Lavinia’s markups with him?  I find it’s so hard to find any sort of expert, from plumber to trimmer, who doesn’t find something about the previous work that doesn’t need changing.  If he was receptive, I would take that as a good sign.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Hay analysis -needs to be soaked or not for a EMS horse please

 
Edited

Hi Andrea,
Could you please post the hay analysis for us to have a peek?  You will need to create a case history folder on the CH subgroup in order to post.  While you’re there, maybe post a case history as well?  The difference between WSC and ESC is due to fructans, not fructose.  The fructans are longer chain molecules which will dissolve in water but not ethanol.  I’ve never seen that great a difference between WSC and ESC but I’ll admit to not having a lot of experience with unusual results.

I would say that you should go back to soaking for now and see if that relieves the pain.  If not, there may be an abscess brewing and your hay may be fine.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Is it safe for Khan try prascend/pergolide (Dr. Kellon please weigh-in thank you)

 

I would say absolutely!  Does she seem hungry enough to eat more?  Could you include some body shots in your album?  Those numbers are just guidelines, mainly geared toward keeping a horse at good weight.  It may be that some of the numbers you’ve used to calculate the hay are incorrect or that she just needs more hay.  Extra unneeded pounds on her body will just get in the way of whatever is being done to relieve hoof pain.  

I keep returning to the diagnosis part of DDT&E.  In my mind, this has not been completely resolved but someone else might feel more comfortable about it.  I can’t quite dismiss the possible involvement of the puncture wound, even though I’m not sure how it might have contributed.  From her breed and her elevated insulin, I have no doubts she should be treated as IR but the cause of the laminitis isn’t clear to me as the insulin hasn’t been high enough to trigger that.  

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: New to the group, new to laminitis

 

Hi Wilmary,
I’m glad you found your way here!  I read through your FB post and the comments it elicited.  I’m not sure what the take away from that would be - a good reminder of why, although I used to be very active on FB, I try to stay away now.  While I’m not the X-ray expert here, I feel I can safely say we’ve seen much worse.

Laminitic pain is not inflammatory so bute doesn’t do anything for that sort of pain.  It may help with associated stiff muscles and such but it’s not worth it with its associated risks.  It interferes with healing as well as with the mobilization of abscesses, which are likely to arise.  We recommend Devil’s Claw instead. I looked up the Absorbine product that Susan recommended.  It contains DC but also yucca, which we don’t recommend for a metabolic laminitis situation.  Uckele’s Phyto-Quench pellets contain DC but I understand they are on back order now.  I’ve seen other products containing DC recommended so perhaps doing a search on the messages here for “Devils Claw” or some iteration of that.  The most reliable way of controlling the pain is to eliminate its cause.

In the material Trisha sent, you will learn about DDT&E, something we refer to repeatedly.  The first D stands for diagnosis, which is where we need to start.  Until you have guidance from blood testing, it’s best to stick to the Emergency Diet (as I believe you are) with soaked hay or one with tested hay, below 10% ESC+starch.  You mentioned looking for the right vet before starting to test.  A good many of us are here because we never found that vet.  You obviously need one for testing and medication but no single vet is likely to have the depth of knowledge and experience with metabolic laminitis that this group has.  My experience has been that older, more experienced vets are perhaps more accepting of modifications to their protocol.  Be sure to have insulin, glucose and ACTH tested to get started.  And do what you can to obtain actual copies of the test results, as well as the vet’s interpretation.

Looking forward to seeing those additions to your case history!
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

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