Thanks Martha for the reply. 

I did think the dry hay would be ok with the ESC and starch results. I have received quite strong feedback (elsewhere) the WSC is extremely high and very dangerous.  I know the ECIR advice is ESC and starch, is this still the case with my hay analysis as the high WSC? 

Embarr wasn’t diagnosed with foxglove toxicity.  I picked it up in the hay, it was absolutely full of it.  The farmer assured me it wasn’t anything to worry about….I took this on face value and kept feeding for another few weeks before researching the hay and discovering it was full of foxglove…. I immediately pulled it and as it was end of season we had to use untested hay and Haylage…: 

I don’t have anything on Embarr’s history.  When he arrived he was in the same set of shoes that he’d had when i was in Holland 4 weeks before and he was long toed and needing help then.  His heels were so contracted and the infection and thrush wasn’t great.  I could loose my baby finger into the central sulacus. 

I’ve just ordered him new scoot boots and he’s between a 4 regular and 5 slim, the pair he was fitted with after he arrived were a size 2!! That’s how contracted his feet were…. I did contact the dealer and agent in Holland to understand more about his history assuring I didn’t want to return him, I was trying to help him but this turned up nothing… I think he has history with his feet most definitely. 

thx
Andrea
--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

 

Photos:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 

Hi Andrea,
Yes, abscessing is often a follow up to laminitis.  And I don’t see any reason to taper between soaked and unsoaked hay as the ESC + starch of the dry hay was 8.5%.  That might be too high for some horses so just keep an eye out.  Interesting that the soaked hay is more difficult for him than the dry.
Was Embarr diagnosed with foxglove toxicity?  I wonder if that might have precipitated the laminitis?  I don’t think of most warmbloods as being predisposed to insulin resistance.
You mentioned that he seemed footsore from when you imported him.  Do you have any history from his previous ownership?
--

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 05:46 PM, celestinefarm wrote:

Hi Maria,
Thank you for the information. Almost all the providers of stabilized ground flax here in the states guarantees a shelf life of two years on their flax. They use a "cold" type of processing, in which slow grinding is used to not create excessive heat during that process. Of course, any product that is opened , then left open to air, or damp in a barn is going to go rancid quickly. It's why I think people encounter their horse "suddenly" doesn't like their supplement or refuses to eat it, it's because it's based in flax that's gone rancid..  I try to order what I need for a month , two months at the most, to avoid rancidity. If I do have to open a big bag, such as a supplemental feed or flax,, I remove what I can use in a week or two into another container, then close up the bag tight and keep it in a trash can somewhere with stable temps. 

Hi Dawn, thanks for sharing, to my understanding and I could be easily wrong, what most deteriorates omega 3 is exposure to air. I think heating doesn´t destroy too much of the omega 3, so I wonder how can shelf life be so extended up to 2 years once is grinded even at a low temperature, the fat will be exposed to air, just thinking out loud, not making assumptions. I also don´t understand the difference between cooked, micronized and stabilized as they all involve more or less some heat as part of the process. I don´t know if by stabilized, enzymatic processes are stopped like in rice bran por example with lipases and that reduces rancidity.

I"m not sure what BHF is saying with the 55% of oil . I think people want to know how much Omega 3 is in a recommended serving of product.

I believe they are saying that 55% of the oil content in flaxseed is omega 3 as an average. The technical data of some linseed I have asked for shows between 40% and 65% of omega 3 content. So if oil content in that linseed is 40% by typical analysis, then aproximately half that oil is going to be omega 3 if it is not destroyed.


--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

Hi Kirsten, 

Thank you for the reply. 

Yes he was on pasture but he also had a change of hay due to the batch being heavily loaded with foxglove.  We had to move him to an untested meadow hay and Haylage (this was tested).  Embarr had never had Haylage before that date…..

Yes it’s his right front hoof.  I did suspect an abscess as he was hoping on one leg.  He did have pulses in all four feet back in June time with the high insulin levels. Is it possible they experience abscesses after a IR/Lami episode?

if I try him on the dry hay is there a minimum time period I should run with before testing and do I break the rule of changing slowly from wet to dry with an instant change please? 

sorry for all the Q and I hope you’re right in the abscess front.

many thx,
andrea  

 
--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

 

Photos:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 

Hi Kirsten,
Chicy has been trimmed several times since she foundered. She went from laying down most of the time to walking with padded boots on in the adjoining paddock to her stall and now being had walked. This week she rolled for the first time and got up and leaped in the air and bucked. When I walked her some more she would buck and jump in the air showing me she feels good. I have been hand walking her for 3 weeks now. Sometimes she wants to trot but I do not encourage that as her left front without boots on is very sore. She did not offer to walk in the clouds so changing to treks has made a big difference. The new trimmer says she has a long way to go but he can get her there. We just need to be patient. 

Thank you for asking. I will not say she felt better after the one trim. But the frequent backing of her toes and new diet have her feeling a lot better. With boots she has not limp. Without boots she lumps on her left front. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334

Hi Maria,
Thank you for the information. Almost all the providers of stabilized ground flax here in the states guarantees a shelf life of two years on their flax. They use a "cold" type of processing, in which slow grinding is used to not create excessive heat during that process. Of course, any product that is opened , then left open to air, or damp in a barn is going to go rancid quickly. It's why I think people encounter their horse "suddenly" doesn't like their supplement or refuses to eat it, it's because it's based in flax that's gone rancid..  I try to order what I need for a month , two months at the most, to avoid rancidity. If I do have to open a big bag, such as a supplemental feed or flax,, I remove what I can use in a week or two into another container, then close up the bag tight and keep it in a trash can somewhere with stable temps. 

I"m not sure what BHF is saying with the 55% of oil . I think people want to know how much Omega 3 is in a recommended serving of product.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 06:32 PM, celestinefarm wrote:

  Micronized Linseed from British Horse Feeds is sold through Emerald Valley, the distributor of Speedi Beet.  Since we have typically used cold milled flax which preserves the fragile Omega's , I'm having a hard time believing that chopping, grinding and cooking linseed, then drying it to a flake to ship preserves the Omega 3's in the same manner. I also can't find the amount of 3's in the product, they simply list 3,6, and 9.  It also only has a shelf life of six months, compared to two years for flax. 

If it is of some help, I contacted BHF about their cooked linseed to ask for the omega 3 content and they said " Omega-3 content is about 55% of oil. There will be some loss due to heating."

I don´t believe the loss is too much based on the studies about omega 3 loss with heating, how much loss, I don´t really know.

About the two years of shelf life, do you mean the seed? I think once it is grinded shelf life reduces considerably due to fat exposed to air. Don´t know if heat can stabilize oxidation and hence rancidity.

 
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

Hi Janet,

I'll leave comments on the trim to Lavinia, but was wondering how Chicy feels?  Was she more comfortable after the trim?

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Hi Andrea,

In June when Embarr's insulin was high, was he on pasture?  Or was he eating the Meadow hay?

I believe it's just his right front that is sore now?  That really sounds more like an abscess because with laminitis both fronts (actually, all 4 hooves, but the fronts seem to show it more) are affected, although one hoof can be more sore if it has more rotation or bone damage and the horse is laminitic.  Aside from the thin soles and a slight capsular rotation due to the trim leaving the toes a bit too long in both fronts, his right front rads do not show bony column rotation or significant bone damage.  I strongly suspect he is working on an abscess, but if you want to be certain it's not laminitis you should have insulin and glucose tested while he is eating his hay dry.  That, more than the hay analysis, will tell you what Embarr can and can't tolerate.

When you update your Case History, you can add some notes in the Comments at the end on which hoof is sore and what the timing is since these details are missing right now.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Hi Katie, just to clarify, his bloodwork shows he IS insulin resistant.  Its a genetic phenotype and not something that develops or that he will become.  He was born with it and it just becomes more apparent at maturity and harder to manage with age.  Right now his IR is well controlled.  What you will be catching early will be signs that his IR is getting out of control and possibly proceeding towards the danger zone for laminitis.  But by being proactive with testing and his lifestyle management, hopefully he will never have high enough insulin to cause laminitis.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

I think you have a couple options.  You can test then increase if needed, or increase first then test after 3 weeks.  Ideally, if testing frequently is not an issue, you would test, increase if necessary, then retest.  It's up to you what works best for you.  I know I can't afford to test that frequently, nor can I get a vet out whenever I want, so I just make do with what I can get done.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Yes I saw thank you 😊 
--
Penny Duthie
Grant, Florida
Joined January 2020

Many discussions here about this product, the claims and metabolic horses that have not found it "safe".
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021

2021 NO Laminitis! Conference Video Recordings available to new subscribers until 12.31.21  www.nolaminitis.org

ECIR Group Policy

When:
12/02/2021

View Event

Description:

Accuracy of Information

We take the importance of accurate information very seriously. The information in our posts and case histories is of tremendous value to all our members and is also used for formal studies. It is extremely important that it be factual. To protect the integrity and veracity of the group's data, a member may be asked at times to produce documentation, such as a copy of a report. These requests will be rare. Most of you will never receive one. 

 

Solicitation is Against the ECIR Group's Policy:

Whether directly selling a product or service or not, if you are contacted privately by someone, be suspicious. These communications frequently target new members or those in a crisis.  They almost universally push a position, product or service that the sender knows will not be upheld under close examination.

 

We welcome questions, suggestions and individual experiences from every member, but the bottom line is the welfare of the horse. ECIR Group approval is always based on provable facts and scientific methods, not opinions and belief.

 

Anyone who tries to bypass being challenged to support their position with properly assembled facts by sending unsolicited private e-mails rather than posting in the messages is, in our opinion, risking the welfare of horses and will be banned.

 

If you receive an unsolicited e-mail either ask the group about it, or forward the mail to main+owner@ECIR.groups.io 

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- The Owners and Support Team of the ECIR Group

 

Wow Lynn.  I am ecstatic to see those numbers. You have done such a great job for your boy.

Just my humble opinion but some vets make a lot about a crest. I know what a soft and a really large/hard crest feels like. If you can run your hand up and down his neck and not feel it hard and ungiving...I think you are doing great.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 07:15 PM, Qhgirl wrote:

Hi All-
I was able to find a barefoot farrier and posted pictures after trim on 2021-11-23.  He said he did not have much foot to work with on the front feet since my regular farrier trimmed her a couple of weeks ago. He said he had to take heels down of front as they were high and creating a pressure point where the coffin bone is pushing on the sole. He had to clean up bars quite a bit. He said lowering the heel would give her some relief. Also she is shedding her frogs which he said is really good as it shows she is remodeling her feet.
I am not sure that her angle has changed much. And she is still very flat footed. He will be back in 2 weeks and then every 5 weeks after that. 

Would love some feedback from Lavinia to see if we are on track. Does it look like she is having less stretch in her sole and is gaining sole depth?  Any comments on progress welcome. New trimmer has 20 years experience and only barefoot trimmer. Said he has helped several foundered horses and is familiar with the ECIR group. 

--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334

Hi Nancy ...ok thank you ...the website and bag claims it’s safe for EMS/laminitis 
--
Michele Goldberg
Bernville, Pa 
joined 5/19/2016

Hi Dawn...ok great thank you for listing these other flax options!
--
Michele Goldberg
Bernville, Pa 
joined 5/19/2016

Thanks to everyone who answered my question.

I guess what I learned is that the hair coat could mean something, or not ...

I'll continue to monitor him and hopefully if he does become IR, I'll catch it early.

Katie


--
Katie
August 2018, Elverson Pa
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Katie%20and%20Rosalien

Hi Penny --

I changed the topic to Chia seeds.

They are similar to flax.  Some analysis show flax as moderately better. Chia is more expensive. Some folks believe that Chia does not need to be ground, which is not true.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/237270

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021

2021 NO Laminitis! Conference Video Recordings available to new subscribers until 12.31.21  www.nolaminitis.org