Date   

Re: New Case Embarr

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Andrea,

To further reassure you, see this post by Dr. Kellon on how high WSC would have to be to be a problem:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/249146

You should see a nearly immediate effect on insulin when you switch from soaked to unsoaked or vs, but I personally wait at least a week after switching before I pull blood to test because their baseline insulin can continue to adapt after the initial diet change.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: My horses don ´t eat Beet pulp

Joan Hornby
 

Hi, my pony won’t eat beet pulp either but he loves this product, I’m not sure where exactly you’re based but they do have European suppliers. Dr Kellon has confirmed that it’s suitable for IR horses.

https://keyflowfeeds.com/horse-feeds/pink-mash/ 


--
Joan Hornby
UK North West
December 2020 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268474 


Re: New Case Embarr

Andrea Thomason
 

Thank you Martha, I will keep with the ESC and starch figures.  Thanks for the assurance. 


I will reach out to Lavinia and get organised on the trim. 


Thank you, much appreciated, 
Andrea 
--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

 

Photos:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 


Re: Struggling to enter pdf file of Dancer's barn hay analysis

 

Hi, Patti.
Now that your hay analysis is posted, if you have a question about it, please post a New Topic with your question. The link for starting a new topic is:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/post 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Struggling to enter pdf file of Dancer's barn hay analysis

Dancer's Mom
 

Thank you so much!
--
Patti
Northern California 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patti%20and%20Dancer


Re: Struggling to enter pdf file of Dancer's barn hay analysis

Dancer's Mom
 

Thanks so much!
--
Patti
Northern California 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patti%20and%20Dancer


Re: My horses don ´t eat Beet pulp

 
Edited

Hi Marie,
Welcome to the ECIR group!  Upon your first post here, we send you our formal welcome with lots of information to read.

I searched the files on the Main page for ‘safe feeds’ and came up with these three entries.  There isn’t a lot which is specific to Europe but we do have some members there who are familiar with sources.  Hopefully, they will post.  Soyhull pellets are an option, if you grow soy there.  It needs to be the hull and pelleting makes it more manageable.  I have used Cavalor FiberForce as a carrier, which I believe has European roots.  It’s not on our safe feeds list but I believe we agree that modest quantities are safe.

You might want to review your supplements to make sure you need them all.  Cutting back on the quantity, if possible, often makes things more palatable.

What follows is lots of good reading material.  Don’t hesitate to reach out with more questions.

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.

--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Struggling to enter pdf file of Dancer's barn hay analysis

 

Patti, here's the link to your Hay Analysis folder:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patti%20and%20Dancer/Hay%20and%20Forage%20Analysis

Once you have the PDF downloaded on your laptop, use the blue button at the top of the page labeled +New/Upload▾. After you click it, it will give your options for adding the pdf file. 

I'll send you a private message to see if I can help you.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Struggling to enter pdf file of Dancer's barn hay analysis

 

Patti, you can either post it as a pdf file in your case history folder or you can create a photo album and store it as a photo.  The album is created much as your case history folder was but in the Photos section.

The link on your signature takes you to your case history folder, which is where you can put everything except photos.  If you open the link, there’s a blue button New/Upload.  Click on that and choose upload file, where you will be able to choose the file you want to upload.  It’s important to know where the file you wish to upload is on your computer.  

Keep us posted!
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: New Case Embarr

 

Andrea, I thought the WSC looked high as well but I looked at my last hay testing and saw that the WSC was three times that of ESC.  I don’t know if there’s any validity to looking at that relationship but yours is the same.

As Maxine mentioned, your hay analysis is pretty special.  I noticed that their explanation about why ESC is more important than WSC is right out of our playbook.  They describe the reason well if you want to review it.

If you want to have a hoof wizard look at his feet, post to Lavinia’s attention.  My still very novice opinion is that they would benefit from some trim adjustments to shorten the toes and add to the soles.  We see that need very frequently.  I also don’t see anything that suggests laminitis to me.  Note disclaimer above.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Struggling to enter pdf file of Dancer's barn hay analysis

Dancer's Mom
 

I'm trying hard to find out how to post the hay analysis for Dancer's new barn hay and I'm struggling with trying to figure out how to add anything to our case history, let along the pdf file of the hay analysis.  I'm sorry if I'm being difficult.  I tried to save the document as a pdf file on my laptop, but it won't let me. I was thinking I could save it as jpg file and save it as a photo.  I can print the document tomorrow and take a picture of it and get jpg file.  But then, I won't know how to enter that either....    Thanks for your suggestions.  Sincerely, Patti
--
Patti
Northern California 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patti%20and%20Dancer


My horses don ´t eat Beet pulp

Marie
 

Hi, 
I had 4 horses. Shetty is probably IR. I need a carrier for suplements. She don ´t eat beet pulp. Second is 22 years old gelding, he has normal metabolism. I want to gain weight a little, but he doesnt eat neither pulp alone or with pressed barley. How do you solve it?

Thanks 
--
Marie Volsicka
Mid Europe
2021


Re: New Case Embarr

Andrea Thomason
 

Thanks Martha for the reply. 


I did think the dry hay would be ok with the ESC and starch results. I have received quite strong feedback (elsewhere) the WSC is extremely high and very dangerous.  I know the ECIR advice is ESC and starch, is this still the case with my hay analysis as the high WSC? 

Embarr wasn’t diagnosed with foxglove toxicity.  I picked it up in the hay, it was absolutely full of it.  The farmer assured me it wasn’t anything to worry about….I took this on face value and kept feeding for another few weeks before researching the hay and discovering it was full of foxglove…. I immediately pulled it and as it was end of season we had to use untested hay and Haylage…: 

I don’t have anything on Embarr’s history.  When he arrived he was in the same set of shoes that he’d had when i was in Holland 4 weeks before and he was long toed and needing help then.  His heels were so contracted and the infection and thrush wasn’t great.  I could loose my baby finger into the central sulacus. 

I’ve just ordered him new scoot boots and he’s between a 4 regular and 5 slim, the pair he was fitted with after he arrived were a size 2!! That’s how contracted his feet were…. I did contact the dealer and agent in Holland to understand more about his history assuring I didn’t want to return him, I was trying to help him but this turned up nothing… I think he has history with his feet most definitely. 

thx
Andrea
--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

 

Photos:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 


Re: New Case Embarr

 

Hi Andrea,
Yes, abscessing is often a follow up to laminitis.  And I don’t see any reason to taper between soaked and unsoaked hay as the ESC + starch of the dry hay was 8.5%.  That might be too high for some horses so just keep an eye out.  Interesting that the soaked hay is more difficult for him than the dry.
Was Embarr diagnosed with foxglove toxicity?  I wonder if that might have precipitated the laminitis?  I don’t think of most warmbloods as being predisposed to insulin resistance.
You mentioned that he seemed footsore from when you imported him.  Do you have any history from his previous ownership?
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Cool Stance Copra and Micronized Linseed /Linseed Meal/Linseed Oil

Maria Duran
 

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 05:46 PM, celestinefarm wrote:
Hi Maria,
Thank you for the information. Almost all the providers of stabilized ground flax here in the states guarantees a shelf life of two years on their flax. They use a "cold" type of processing, in which slow grinding is used to not create excessive heat during that process. Of course, any product that is opened , then left open to air, or damp in a barn is going to go rancid quickly. It's why I think people encounter their horse "suddenly" doesn't like their supplement or refuses to eat it, it's because it's based in flax that's gone rancid..  I try to order what I need for a month , two months at the most, to avoid rancidity. If I do have to open a big bag, such as a supplemental feed or flax,, I remove what I can use in a week or two into another container, then close up the bag tight and keep it in a trash can somewhere with stable temps. 

Hi Dawn, thanks for sharing, to my understanding and I could be easily wrong, what most deteriorates omega 3 is exposure to air. I think heating doesn´t destroy too much of the omega 3, so I wonder how can shelf life be so extended up to 2 years once is grinded even at a low temperature, the fat will be exposed to air, just thinking out loud, not making assumptions. I also don´t understand the difference between cooked, micronized and stabilized as they all involve more or less some heat as part of the process. I don´t know if by stabilized, enzymatic processes are stopped like in rice bran por example with lipases and that reduces rancidity.

I"m not sure what BHF is saying with the 55% of oil . I think people want to know how much Omega 3 is in a recommended serving of product.
I believe they are saying that 55% of the oil content in flaxseed is omega 3 as an average. The technical data of some linseed I have asked for shows between 40% and 65% of omega 3 content. So if oil content in that linseed is 40% by typical analysis, then aproximately half that oil is going to be omega 3 if it is not destroyed.


--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


Re: New Case Embarr

Andrea Thomason
 

Hi Kirsten, 

Thank you for the reply. 


Yes he was on pasture but he also had a change of hay due to the batch being heavily loaded with foxglove.  We had to move him to an untested meadow hay and Haylage (this was tested).  Embarr had never had Haylage before that date…..

Yes it’s his right front hoof.  I did suspect an abscess as he was hoping on one leg.  He did have pulses in all four feet back in June time with the high insulin levels. Is it possible they experience abscesses after a IR/Lami episode?

if I try him on the dry hay is there a minimum time period I should run with before testing and do I break the rule of changing slowly from wet to dry with an instant change please? 

sorry for all the Q and I hope you’re right in the abscess front.


many thx,
andrea  


 
--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

 

Photos:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 


Re: Chicy Trim Pictures at 2 months Lavinia 2nd Request

Qhgirl
 

Hi Kirsten,
Chicy has been trimmed several times since she foundered. She went from laying down most of the time to walking with padded boots on in the adjoining paddock to her stall and now being had walked. This week she rolled for the first time and got up and leaped in the air and bucked. When I walked her some more she would buck and jump in the air showing me she feels good. I have been hand walking her for 3 weeks now. Sometimes she wants to trot but I do not encourage that as her left front without boots on is very sore. She did not offer to walk in the clouds so changing to treks has made a big difference. The new trimmer says she has a long way to go but he can get her there. We just need to be patient. 

Thank you for asking. I will not say she felt better after the one trim. But the frequent backing of her toes and new diet have her feeling a lot better. With boots she has not limp. Without boots she lumps on her left front. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Re: Cool Stance Copra and Micronized Linseed /Linseed Meal/Linseed Oil

celestinefarm
 

Hi Maria,
Thank you for the information. Almost all the providers of stabilized ground flax here in the states guarantees a shelf life of two years on their flax. They use a "cold" type of processing, in which slow grinding is used to not create excessive heat during that process. Of course, any product that is opened , then left open to air, or damp in a barn is going to go rancid quickly. It's why I think people encounter their horse "suddenly" doesn't like their supplement or refuses to eat it, it's because it's based in flax that's gone rancid..  I try to order what I need for a month , two months at the most, to avoid rancidity. If I do have to open a big bag, such as a supplemental feed or flax,, I remove what I can use in a week or two into another container, then close up the bag tight and keep it in a trash can somewhere with stable temps. 

I"m not sure what BHF is saying with the 55% of oil . I think people want to know how much Omega 3 is in a recommended serving of product.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Cool Stance Copra and Micronized Linseed /Linseed Meal/Linseed Oil

Maria Duran
 

On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 06:32 PM, celestinefarm wrote:
  Micronized Linseed from British Horse Feeds is sold through Emerald Valley, the distributor of Speedi Beet.  Since we have typically used cold milled flax which preserves the fragile Omega's , I'm having a hard time believing that chopping, grinding and cooking linseed, then drying it to a flake to ship preserves the Omega 3's in the same manner. I also can't find the amount of 3's in the product, they simply list 3,6, and 9.  It also only has a shelf life of six months, compared to two years for flax. 

If it is of some help, I contacted BHF about their cooked linseed to ask for the omega 3 content and they said " Omega-3 content is about 55% of oil. There will be some loss due to heating."

I don´t believe the loss is too much based on the studies about omega 3 loss with heating, how much loss, I don´t really know.

About the two years of shelf life, do you mean the seed? I think once it is grinded shelf life reduces considerably due to fat exposed to air. Don´t know if heat can stabilize oxidation and hence rancidity.

 
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


Re: Chicy Trim Pictures at 2 months Lavinia 2nd Request

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Janet,

I'll leave comments on the trim to Lavinia, but was wondering how Chicy feels?  Was she more comfortable after the trim?

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

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