Date   

Re: Cushings

celestinefarm
 

Melissa, Equi Analytical is the equine analysis division of Dairy One. The ECIR group has found over the years that Equi Analytical has been consistent in their analysis methods and reporting and the group is very familiar with their reporting. EA is also very user friendly to the average horse owner. You can request sample bags and postage paid mailers to send in your samples. They can provide you with results online through email or regular mail. If you have questions one of the lab personnel is available to talk to you. I have called them to ask if they could run nitrate tests on my samples after I received questionable protein results and not only did they do it but I had the results the next day. Since forage is the overwhelming percent of your horse's diet, knowing what is in it is crucial when developing a feeding plan or ferreting out issues. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Cushings

Melissa Starks
 

So to be clear you suggest sending a hay sample to this place? Yes he has had alfalfa in his diet in the past with no problems.  I just recently the last year started feeding the Timothy.  He colic for the first time ever and had sever ulcers. I switched to the Timothy trying to control any ulcer problems through feed and not prescriptions the Timothy was safer to give more off then the mix since he's also a easy keeper  Hes had no problems the last year
--
Melissa in NV 2022

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271546


Re: Fasting glucose test

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Ditte. Just wanted to share my experience with a vet who insisted on fasting prior to testing....I explained that what I was needing was a baseline of how well my horses body was functioning  when it was ingesting food....because my horse is never without some type of food getting processed. So, to have a test done on a fasting horse just doesn't make any sense. You can't really determine how the cells are functioning, if they aren't being stimulated by the process of digestion and absorption.  Just like a lameness exam....you don't have the horse just stand there to evaluate for lameness, right? They get the horse to walk, trot, etc to see the anatomy function or lack of function...and then make a decision from there. Hope this helps in speaking with your vet. 
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: Fasting glucose test

Ditte
 

  I can't follow the guidelines for a non-fasting test either, when the time of the test is in the morning as they don't have acces to haylage all night. No I don't have him in boots or "legwarmers". It's not really that cold here, so I don't think that's the issue. He's shod and it's very wet and muddy now, so that would be a mess. they're stalled evenings and nights. 
--
   Ditte
   Denmark
   June 2019


locked Re: Urgent Advice Required (Part II)

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Here is a list of articles linking PCOS and anti-Mullerian hormone https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=pcos+anti-mullerian&sort=date .  There may be a vet in your area with small enough hands and forearms to do the exam (e.g. I can do horses/ponies her size!)

We obviously cannot prescribe for her but some options would be to remove 2 liters of blood (this likely needs to be repeated) and start her on estradiol 3 mg daily.

Is she off the Danilon yet?

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


locked Re: Urgent Advice Required (Part II)

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The elevated iron is consistent with iron overload. You can address this over time with strict mineral balancing. Some have gone the route of venisection (blood removal) to quickly lower iron with good results.  The elevated anti-Mullerian hormone is consistent with granulosa theca cell tumor or PCOS.  They should be easy to tell apart with an ovarian ultrasound.  PCOS in mares with EMS responds well to estrogen.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Allergies possible symptom of PPID?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You could ask for a full thickness skin biopsy that includes a hive and surrounding skin, or just ask if they would be willing to consider a complement mediated problem rather than histamine. If you e-mail me privately I can give you the name and contact info for one of the vets that has treated this with stanozolol.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Fasting glucose test

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Ditte,

As you already know we don't recommend fasting for testing as it will possibly create a falsely low insulin which makes many vets think that the horse is not IR when they really are. You have the option of not fasting and not mentioning that to the vet and then interpreting the tests with that in mind or know that for a horse to truly NOT be IR when fasting the insulin number should be below 6 NOT in what is the 'normal' range of 10 - 40.

Issues at this time of year are usually seen in IR horses who are experiencing winter laminitis due to the cold.  Do you have him in hoof and leg boots at this time?



locked Re: Urgent Advice Required (Part II)

Sherry Morse
 


Fasting glucose test

Ditte
 

  I have an appointment with the vet for Monday morning to get both my horses tested for PPID and the gelding also for Lyme as I found a tick on him in June. A couple of weeks later he had an allergic reaction with swollen lips, eyes and lumps all over on his neck and shoulders. It went away quickly without treatment and I didn't think more of it even though it was more difficult to keep the pulses away than usual. Now (on/off since late November) he's not doing so well with pulses and warm hooves. I've never had issues with him (or the mare) this time of year. Previously it has been in May/June and has gone away as soon as grass intake was reduced and he hasn't needed the muzzle after august until this year. The mare which is usually the one with problems is doing fine on the same feed. Haylage is not tested, but from 2019 and 2020, so I've used it before without problems. So something is definitely "wrong" with the gelding. The vet wants to do a fasting glucose test. I have linked to the ECIR guidelines trying to convince him to do it non-fasting without succes. Is there any point in doing the fasting test, when given their long history of trouble tolerating grass,  I'm pretty convinced they've been IR since they were 2 years old in 2007/2008?                                                 

     Ditte
   Denmark
   June 2019


Re: Lavinia and who ever new pics posted for critique

Julie Allen
 

Thanks Lavinia -
I am going to mull this all over -
but can you explain how her soles are thin ?
 I am not understanding this ?

I measured her collateral groove at the deepest point back of the foot - but I meant 2 cm not millimeters ..if that makes a difference . Even in her x-rays they looked good . To me - maybe I just do not understand what a good sole depth is .. do we wont like an inch or more then ? 

we still cannot pull her hind legs back to clean up her soles but with much coaxing she did allow us to put her hinds on the hoof Jack so we could do a very fast trim .
I will remind my daughter to leave the frogs alone - she has a tendency to like them to look nice .. 


Will take a minute later tonight to go and properly label the pics .
- thanks . 




--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132


Re: Lavinia and who ever new pics posted for critique

Julie Allen
 

Gah ! Yes ..cm .. math terms are not my strong suit ..

and yes at the heel ..

--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132


Re: Timothy Cubes

Joy V
 

Aurelio, You may not know the answer to this, but is there any possibility that Ontario Dehy might one day sell balanced cubes that are *not* timothy hay based, but another type of hay such as orchard?  I would be interested if so. 

(My horse is (dramatically, drastically) allergic to timothy hay.)

Thank you!
Joy

  
--
Joy and Willie (EC/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


locked Urgent Advice Required (Part II)

Rebecca.speed@...
 

Hello again, 

Seeking urgent advice regarding recent bloods taken which result in an unusual Anti-mullarian hormone result. My previous topic here was ‘Urgent Adive Required’ where I outlined the extreme troubles Emme is experiencing with chronic laminitis. 

Any further suggestions in light of the iron results would also be much appreciated. All new blood work is in our file along with new photos and an up to date case history. Thank you x


Re: Allergies possible symptom of PPID?

Bonnie Eddy
 

Thank you Dr Kellon for the information.
Your statement "The prolonged course (months to years) is also suspicious for something other than run of the mill hives."
 
Where do I start trying to figure out why she is so impacted? The vets don't seem to have a clue, and don't seem to want to suggest how to find out.   They just want to treat hives. 
Thank you again,
--
Bonnie with Racham (over the rainbow) from Southern California, Nov/2016

Case History
Racham's Photos 
Ω 

 


Re: Lavinia and who ever new pics posted for critique

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Julie,

At the deepest point at the heels?  Did you mean cm?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Timothy Cubes

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Thank you, Aurelio. While we're on the subject of the cubes, I want to briefly review the process for their production. Both the hays and beet pulp (which is non-GMO) going into the cubes are tested for each production period. I then balance the minerals to those specific test results.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Lavinia - new mark-ups request

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kathy,

I've added mark-ups to Magni's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=266135&p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0

Biggest issues are that the toes need to be backed up to get the breakover set closer to the tip of the frog and the heels are underrun.  The two things commonly go hand-in-hand. There are mild lateral flares on all four feet and the frogs are somewhat elongated, which is masking the fact that the toes have run ahead of where they need to be. This configuration then self-perpetuates as with every step, the heels get driven forward.\. Need to take the toes back thru what appears to be thee white line - or thru that built up ridge of material that is covering the white line. This is not toe callous. Only trim off ragged bits of frog, if needed, leaving s much calloused frog in place as possible. You don't want to expose any of the waxy, immature frog underneath. Check the medio-lateral balance of each foot by measuring both collateral groove depths then comparing them -  you want both to be the same depth, and not less than 1" at their deepest point near the back of the foot. The goal is to have the depth at 3/4" near the apex of the frog. Less than this means DO NOT remove anything as there is already too little material. See here for more:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Balance.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Breakover.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/FrogTrim.html

LF dorsal: Green line follows the angle of the healthier attachments coming in under the coronary band toward the ground. The blue area is the remaining flared material- rasp it inward to match the angle from above, then finish with a bevel at ground level so that the weaker attached wall material isn't involved in weight bearing.

LF lateral: Green line follows the angle of the new growth above - which isn't really visible due to the heavy hair obscuring the coronary band but is indicated by the dishing of the dorsal wall. This isn't a trim line, just a visual for where the dorsal wall will eventually be aligned when the entire hoof capsule stands up straighter and more fully under the bony column. Orange line shows where the heels should be located, again, once they stand up straighter. Blue area is where the toe needs to be backed up between 10 and 2.

LF sole: Solid blue line is where to bring the toe back/walls in to, with the hashed areas all the material that needs to be removed. Finish with a bevel all around. The wall on the medial side is intentionally left untouched as that isn't flared so doesn't need to be pulled inward. Take the walls in the heel buttresses completely out of weight bearing, allowing the bar to be the highest point there. See figures 2 and 3 here:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

Lightly ramp the bars (yellow hashes) up to the buttresses but don't remove any height from them once you get to the wall-bar juncture. Ramp the heel buttresses behind the wall-bar juncture back toward the heel bulbs (orange hashes). Nothing off the sole.

RF dorsal: Same idea as the LF, with the blue area the remaining slight flare.

RF lateral: Follow the discussion for the LF. Notice that this one isn't as dished as the LF is.

RF sole: Same as the LF.

LH dorsal: Again, a bit of lateral flare to bring in.

LH lateral: Same idea as the fronts, tho the toe isn't as far forward.

LH sole: Blue solid line is where to pull the toe back to and the lateral wall flare inward to. Leave the heels alone except to add a ramp to the backs of them to help ease landings and encourage them to stand up a bit more. Preserve all the vertical height there is.

RH dorsal: Same ideas the LH.

RH lateral: Again, pull in the blue area. Green and orange lines are visual markers, not trim lines.

RH sole: Same as the other three.

If you have less than 1" depth to the collateral grooves at their deepest points and/or less than 3/4" near the apex of the frog, Magni should be wearing padded boots to protect his soles. Work to produce consistent heel-first landings on whatever footing he is on as toe-first is never what you want to see.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Lavinia and who ever new pics posted for critique

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Julie,

Hang in there, you're making progress. I took a look at the photos and relabeled the hinds as they were reversed. You have the dates done correctly, just need to identify the hooves after the date, rather than before. Take a look at how I've labeled the hind feet laterals to see how all the photos should be labeled to keep them sorting properly in your album over time:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/271132/3365123?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0

The trim is moving in the right direction but looks like it still needs some tweaks. All four feet appear to be laterally high - or they might be medially low. You get the same result when looking at them but the fix depends on which problem is actually present. If the medial side is too low, DO NOT lower the lateral side to match - instead, allow the medial side to catch up. Heels appear to be too low relative to the vertical height in the front half of the feet - more so on the hinds than the fronts. Frogs should only have ragged bits removed in the future while leaving the calloused frog in place to protect the immature, waxy frog from being exposed. Looks like the toes could be pulled back a bit more at ground level but NOT if the soles are that thin right now.

Where is that 2mm collateral groove depth reading from  - near the apex of the frog or at the deepest point near the back of the foot? You are looking to have 15-18mm of depth so either way, the soles are critically thin and Cookie should be in padded boots at all times.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Cushings

 

Thank you, Melissa.  I don’t recall if you told us what type of hay testing your report reflects.  That’s where a case history saves you the aggravation of our asking the same question repetitively.  If you knew what the mineral composition of your hay was, you could supplement it much more accurately, which is always beneficial, especially to metabolically challenged horses.  We recommend the 603 Trainer analysis from Equi- Analytical.  You can have other places do it as long as the description is the same.  Alfalfa makes some horses footsore, having nothing to do with sugars or starches, but if he’s had it before, he’s not likely affected.  It can affect the mineral balancing of your forage.

The test your vet chose to determine his PPID status is often used as a first time test.  Two samples are drawn, before and after hormone stimulation.  In early cases, the pre stim test is often normal while the hormone stimulated results are quite high so, without TRH, the blood results are negative.  The fact that Nevada’s ACTH is elevated in the first draw makes the results from the second draw less meaningful.

As you suggest, I think it’s wise to keep an eye on his IR status.  His insulin might go down a bit with lower ACTH which would be reassuring.   
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

9141 - 9160 of 278175