Re: Ground Flaxseed

Nancy C

Hi Anna

Flax seed is given to supply Essential Fatty Acids missing in equine diets. Usually found in grass, our metabolic equines need to have it supplied. Flax has the closest Omega 3 and 6 profile to fresh grass.  It was more affordable than chia seed, however that may be changing.

Uckele CocoOmega has been recommended as a granular Omega/flax supplement. Some folks buy and feed whole seed, however, ECIR recommends fresh grinding this daily to help with absorption. Grinding yourself may give you more flexibility in consistency.

Here's more flax info

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022

Re: Ground Flaxseed

Sherry Morse

Hi Anna,

Flaxseed replaces the Omegas they are no longer getting from grazing and is recommended because it's the form that most closely resembles the profile of fresh grass.  You can use Chia seeds as well but they have historically been more expensive. 

Re: Introduction

Sherry Morse

Hi Ed,

For pictures and your case history you need to follow the directions in your welcome letter and join the case history sub group: | Home.  Once you do that you will need to create a photo album and a case history folder.  Photos and any other JPG files go in the photo album.  Case History information and any other PDF or DOC files go in the case history folder.  

This is the paragraph about this from your welcome letter and also see the Case History email you were sent when you first posted: 

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Jiaogulan should be fed 20 minutes BEFORE the main meal and as a pony that 'meal' should be only whatever you need in the way of a carrier to get minerals in.  

Your x-rays show not a whole lot of sole and toes that are too long which is a common issue.  There is also a good amount of flare on the foot you posted pictures of.  All of that needs to be addressed for your guy to feel more comfortable.  

Insulinwise is supposed to offer a money back guarantee - you may want to look into that.  

As far as diet - hay only needs to be soaked for an hour if you're using cold water (30 minutes in hot water). We don't recommend timothy pellets as they're not guaranteed to be under our recommendation of 10% ESC+starch.  If you need a carrier for minerals you can use rinse/soaked/rinsed molasses free beet pulp or the timothy balance cubes.  Keep in mind that as an IR horse you need to be weighing everything that goes into the horse so he should be eating no more than 1.5% of his current weight or 2% of his ideal weight (whichever is greater) and that includes all EVERYTHING fed to him.  If you feed the Timothy Balance Cubes as the carrier for minerals they are more calorie dense than hay and are fed at a 3:4 ratio. In other words, if he should be eating 20lbs a day and you're feeding 15lbs of hay the other 5lbs would not be 5lbs of cubes but 3.75lbs of them. 

Shetlandpony 12 year laminites



(i couldn edit the subject over, but i mean the pony is 12 years old and have laminites. Not that she had it for 12 years:))

Sorry for this long message and bad english, but i hope for some insight from you!

I need some good advice from you guys. I took in 2 shetlandsponys for about 2 years ago. Knowing they had laminites some years back.
It was a mother and daughter. 12 years and 21 years. They got over the laminites, and was only fed hay low in sugar. They didnt get any exercise where they stood, but seemed fine when we got them. The mother was overweight thou.
We startet with handwalking them every day, and they had a larger area with no grass, but with some forrest terrain to be in every day. We kept feeding them in the same way as previous owner did.
Just after a couple of months i notised the younger one didnt want to go. I just thought she was beeing stubborn. But as soon as winter came she had laminites. Mother was fine.
We put her inside, farrier trimmed her. We soaked hay and gave her boots. After few weeks she was fine. Or so i thought. She has always been slow and a bit off....But the former owner said that just the way she was.
i was not the most experienced horsowner, so i just thought so to.
After winter and in the summertime we got to other horses as well. The ponies lived with them. All 4 in a relativ big area and they was outside day and night, drinking from the river.Free feeding with low sugar hay in haynets. No grass.
Suddenly the older pony(the mother) got a huge swelling in her udder and teats. The vet diagnosed her with mastitis and she got penicilin and i cleaned an massaged her udder every day.The swelling changed but did not dissapear. She got sicker and ended up with hyperlipedimia and the clinic could not save her even thou we started treatment. I was heartbroken.What did i do wrong. The clinic said that she probably had PPID. But that didnt give her the Hyperlipedimia. A few months before this i called the vet because i had felt two hard small lumps in each of her teat. But the vet said that cancer was very rare.
This pony was 21 years and slightly overweight.
Question 1: What could this be?Could this be PPID related?I feeel it was my fault but i also feel that these ponyes was sicker than i knew.
Back to the other pony. Her daughter. She got laminites again this winter, and now it was even worse. She has been lame for to months. This time i called in a expert in hoof and laminites for 32 year to take x-rays and trim her. She had pretty bad rotation. The vet meant that this was going on for years. She walked better as soon as she trimmed her heel down and her toe.Even thou my farrier had been ther a week before and didnt want to take more. But this helped.
She is now outside with the others after been innside at night with a friend. But they dont like to be inside, so now shes outside night and day, I handwalk her everyday. She get free hay with low suger 5,8%. I soak some hay, and did when she was inside at night. But she dont want to eat it. And she is thin. So i feed her with the low sugar hay.
I testet her for PPID in January, and she tested positiv. Got on Prascend. In week 5 i had to take her off, because she responded very bad. She was on 1/2 pill.
The vet put her on metformin now. This is the first week. I will start with 1/4 Prascend again in latesummer/fall.
Question(s) 2: What more should i do for her?Should i soak hay?Should i start with Prascend now or do you agree wth the vet to wait closer to fall?Something i am doing wrong. She is walking bit better now and gained spark in her eyes.

Ground Flaxseed


Why are we supposed to provide ECIR horses with flaxseed? 
I am not giving a mash, just everything mixed with pelleted supplements and 8oz of grain carrier that I plan to remove completely. I have not added the flaxseed yet, but would like to.
Do horses generally like the flaxseed? Feeding 1 1/2oz twice a day seems like a lot of powder. 
Are there suggestions of this in a pelleted form?
Anna Warzecha, MI, 2022

Re: Introduction


Thank you for the responses and the welcome!

I will definitely look into Phyto-Quench and I'm already tapering off the banamine. He seems okay on 250 mg twice a day, down from 650 mg twice a day. This evening I only gave him 125 mg. If he's okay with it I'll try to stop it tomorrow.

Being new to I'm struggling with the interface. I cannot figure out a straightforward way to post images so I'm including a link to the image gallery here: The radiographs and the bloodwork were taken on Feb 9 and the pictures of the left foot today (March 1). Both front feet are trimmed similarly - I was taking pictures after work and it was getting dark and I was shooting against the light coming through the stall door so the right foot pictures didn't come out right. I apologize for that and I will try to get more pictures with better illumination. I also included an image of the dim insert over the thera pad with a crescent-shaped divot. 

I read about InsulinWise in this group but only after the vet had already sold it to me. Same with Isoxsuprine. I'm planning on finishing what I have, unless it's counterproductive. I'm also getting LaminOx but the shipment keeps getting delayed.

His diet is coastal hay soaked for two hours plus timothy pellets twice a day, 3/4 quart of dry pellets each feeding. I mix them with aloe vera juice and they swell to about a quart. That is only to get his supplements into him. I also have triple crown timothy balance cubes that I used to give him as treats but I stopped all treats after he foundered.

I also changed how I give Jiaogulan: before I was mixing it with the food and now I'm adding a little water to it, mixing it into thick paste and rolling it into a soft "cookie" that he readily takes from my hand. I feed and medicate 20 minutes after.

Thank you once again for all the help and the info!
Ed P in TX 2022

Re: Pepper is foundering

Trisha DePietro

Hi Lori. Welcome. I'm sorry you have to be here...Have you had your vet out yet to examine your pony? I'm not sure where you live, but sometimes cold weather can induce painful feet. What follows is our welcome letter for new members. It contains our protocol for diet, trim, exercise and diagnosis...which is really important. That is really your first step in helping your pony. This letter is full of information for you and it can seem very overwhelming, but we are here if you have questions after reading. Each section has blue links embedded so that you can click on them and delve deeper into a specific topic. It's important to know the root cause of why your pony is foundering... once you have a clear picture of his root problem then we can help you- help him !!! So read through this letter and ask any questions here on the forum as they come up for you. 


Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.


DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.


There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder

Pepper is foundering

LoriRieth <Rlmlrieth@...>

My pony is 8 years old this year.   I bought her a year ago for my granddaughter (who has now moved away).  My trimmer said he thought she had probably foundered previously because of her feet and she does have a hard crested neck.  She started looking like she was walking gingerly three days ago so my trimmer came out on Sunday and got her trimmed.   
She is on grass hay but I have fed soaked beet pulp.   I give it to my two other horses and only gave her a few hands full but I can see that was a mistake.  
She was very tender this morning but this afternoon was moving around better.  
I don’t know anything about founder.   I’ve never had a horse founder before.  
Please help! 

Now: ECIR Group Policy - 03/02/2022 #cal-notice Calendar <noreply@...>

ECIR Group Policy


View Event


Accuracy of Information

We take the importance of accurate information very seriously. The information in our posts and case histories is of tremendous value to all our members and is also used for formal studies. It is extremely important that it be factual. To protect the integrity and veracity of the group's data, a member may be asked at times to produce documentation, such as a copy of a report. These requests will be rare. Most of you will never receive one. 


Solicitation is Against the ECIR Group's Policy:

Whether directly selling a product or service or not, if you are contacted privately by someone, be suspicious. These communications frequently target new members or those in a crisis.  They almost universally push a position, product or service that the sender knows will not be upheld under close examination.


We welcome questions, suggestions and individual experiences from every member, but the bottom line is the welfare of the horse. ECIR Group approval is always based on provable facts and scientific methods, not opinions and belief.


Anyone who tries to bypass being challenged to support their position with properly assembled facts by sending unsolicited private e-mails rather than posting in the messages is, in our opinion, risking the welfare of horses and will be banned.


If you receive an unsolicited e-mail either ask the group about it, or forward the mail to 

Thank you for your cooperation.


The Owners and Support Team of the ECIR Group


Re: How do the x-rays look? And what to do about high insulin (again), even while on metformin?

Kirsten Rasmussen

I would send in your own sample of hay for testing and make sure you get a wet chemistry analysis.  I've yet to see a hay provider than doesn't rely on NIR analysis, which we know is way less accurate for measuring carbs.  It's possible you have a batch of higher sugar bales.

My horse had several laminitic flareups (3 in 1 year) on his 7% hay that he had been doing ok on on the previous year.  I was able to resolve the laminitis all 3 times within a few days by starting to soak the hay.  I think it was the onset of early PPID that made his IR worsen from one year to the next, so after a year of soaking we tried pergolide, and I was able yo stop soaking the 7% hay.  Just because it's low sugar hay doesn't mean it's low enough sugar.  As your pony ages, and with the complication of PPID, you might find her becoming less tolerant of sugars.  I know her ACTH is low but I would also consider increasing her pergolide to see if that helps.  It would be nice to see her history of test results and dosage. 

Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Re: How do the x-rays look? And what to do about high insulin (again), even while on metformin?


She seems equally sore in both fronts (and with no swelling), so I don't think it's an abscess, but that's possible.

I don't think the weather/cold caused this flare up, but I know a few other local people have had their laminetic horses develop a flare up at about the same time, so the weather might be to blame.

What exactly about the trim might be causing her discomfort? I'm going to ask the farrier to try and take as much toe of as possible when she comes on Monday. She has been trying to do this, but she doesn't want to take too much off at once.

I've been giving the metformin in a syringe. I crush it in a coffee grinder and add about 20cc of milk of magnesia. My pony is good about taking it and doesn't try to spit it out, so aside from whatever residue is left on the syringe, I think she is getting most/ all of it.
Helene A. in BC 2021
Photo album:

Re: How do the x-rays look? And what to do about high insulin (again), even while on metformin?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

More sore than she should be makes me think of a few things, not necessarily in this order:

- Abscessing
- Cold induced pain (although yours doesn't sound like that)
- Lyme or other chronic infection
- Trim

How do you give the metformin? Are you sure she's getting all of it?
Eleanor in PA 
EC Owner 2001

Re: How do the x-rays look? And what to do about high insulin (again), even while on metformin?


I should add that I've gone over her diet with the vet, and he doesn't think there is anything I should change. She has been on this diet + hay for years, and it's the only diet that has worked to keep her at a consistent weight without developing fat pads.

The vet is completely puzzled as to why she's had this flare up (outside of blaming the weather, but when the symptoms first started to appear the temps were above 10 degrees C). He's said that her x-rays don't look that bad, but he's concerned with how sore/ uncomfortable my pony seems (he thinks she's more sore than she should be given the x-rays).

I really want to be able to keep fighting for her, but if this is just something that will keep getting out of control, then I don't want to put her through unnecessary pain....
Helene A. in BC 2021
Photo album:

Re: How do the x-rays look? And what to do about high insulin (again), even while on metformin?


Does Metformin really stop working so quickly (after only 2 months)? I have looked into Invokana and briefly brought it up to my vet, but unfortunately that would be too expensive/ not feasible to maintain... 

If the metformin has stopped being effective, does that mean that her insulin will always be out of control? Her diet really is as "tight" as is can be. She only gets the 6% sugar hay (the company I get it from only tests for major nutrients, not minerals/ vitamins) which is fed free choice (otherwise she becomes underweight. Right now her ribs are visible, even though she still has a cresty neck, which she's always had since I've owned her). And the only other food she gets is about a handful of molasses-free beetpulp. For supplements she gets 1/2 cup of flax and 2 tbs of J-herb (she refuses to eat it if any more than 2 tbs are added). She's very picky about supplements and normally won't touch them. I was never able to find a mineral/ vitamin supplement that she would eat, so I just stopped trying to make her eat them. 

Right now our temps are a fairly consistent 10 degrees (celsius). When the vet came to recheck her x-rays and insulin we did have a cold spike that went down to about -6 celsius. She is wearing boots (easyboot clouds) and lined shipping boots when the temp drops and overnight.

The insulin tests were non-fasting, and were done between 4-6hrs after getting her breakfast.
Helene A. in BC 2021
Photo album:

Re: Stupid questions I am too embarrassed to ask or go against the status quo

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

Not stupid at all, Frances. The exact mechanism isn't known but it's likely a result of hormonal responses to cold stress. Dr. Fitzgerald, a researcher at Gluck, was the first to mention here that as temperatures dropped insulins got very erratic. We have since seen, as have others, that an insulin rise can result from cold weather.
Eleanor in PA 
EC Owner 2001

Stupid questions I am too embarrassed to ask or go against the status quo

Frances C

Drawing blood for insulin testing - why does temperature influence the reading of insulin? If the blood draw is performed outside on a chilly day can the actual procedure of drawing blood in syringe and then transferring into a tube make a difference? (eg the blood just getting colder) If the same procedure was done in a warm barn but with the same outside temps. would the result be any different? I am kind of assuming that the horse produces more insulin/glucose in an attempt to keep its body temp in its normal range and if that is the case then cold weather would raise glucose levels?
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history:
Phoenix's Photo Album:

Re: Question about what minerals to buy and where

Sherry Morse

Hi Angela,

Once you get your hay test results back you'll want to contact one of the hay balancers on this list: to assist you with balancing the minerals.  Depending on what you need to balance the hay will help determine what you will buy and from what source.

Re: My 7 yr old Morgan with winter laminitis

Sherry Morse

Hi Yvonne,

1 - no trailering and testing as it will raise his ACTH/Insulin levels.
2 - we recommend no forced exercise until the horse is comfortable and most of a new hoof has grown in.  You can read about this in your welcome letter and on the website at DDT +E – Exercise | ECIR Group, Inc. (
3 - was the hay tested via NIR or Wet Chem?  Do you have the actual test results?

Question about what minerals to buy and where


--Hello Everyone,
I am so thankful for all your guidance.  My Gracie is getting so much better and that makes me so very happy.  I have a few questions.  I will be getting a new delivery of hay tomorrow.  I have never had hay tested before.  I want to be ready for when I get the results back.   I have bought to tool to get the hay samples and the bag to ship it in.  Now I am wondering what minerals and vitamins I need to buy so I will be ready when I get the hay analysis back?   I have the things in the emergency diet... the flax, salt, vitamin E and magnesium but I know there's more I need.  Also where do most of you buy them from?

Thanks for your help! Angela

Angela B Cave Creek Arizona 20222 

Digest # 633

Frances C

I just love ECIR, especially when digests contain posts that make me laugh like reading "mouse" instead of "moose" and wondering why a mouse would prevent someone walking their horse. Or Dr. K's statement on CocoSoya and immediate refutements. In regard to this kind of stuff I'd like to post a topic called "Stupid questions that I am too embarrassed to ask or go against the status quo"
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history:
Phoenix's Photo Album:

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