Date   

Re: Hay analysis reading help

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Chris, you can send your hay to Nutrilytical in Calgary and check off the 603 Trainer test on their form.  They will forward a sample split to Equi-Analytical.   If you go to the Nutrilytical website, you'll see they will also ship you a hay probe for sampling for 26$, as long as you return it with your hay sample.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Help Stomp Out Bad Information

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

AND the level of fructan that Borer fed would correspond to a 5% fructan hay or pasture , considerably above the average 2.5% in North America.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Help Stomp Out Bad Information

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

P.S.  Borer found adding inulin to the diet produced minimal change in insulin and glucose compared to the same amount of glucose or fructose https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22966077/ .
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Help Stomp Out Bad Information

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

Louise,

I've run into all those arguments too.

1. That's not the way science works. There is no proof that fructan at levels found in pastures and ingested as a part of the grass rather than tubed in as a huge bolus causes laminitis. None. It  reminds  me of a study where researchers surgically implanted sand into ponies' cecums, 10 g/kg so 2.5 lb for a 250 lb pony then found psyllium didn't move it. Aside from the fact sand doesn't accumulate in the cecum naturally, that is a ridiculously large amount of sand to take in at one time. That 10 g/kg BW dose is also the lowest fructan dose that will reliably induce laminitis in horses.
2. Obesity does not case laminitis or IR. https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2021/07/22/obesity-and-insulin-resistance/ The obesity and inflammation connection in humans has not been  found in horses either.
3. There is a major flaw in that paper which the authors also recognized. They left it in contact with the small intestinal flora for 16 hours while in reality it would be more like 2 hours.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: discontinuing boots? ....

Sherry Morse
 

If she's about the same with and without them I'd try adding in the Mov-Ease and see if that helps.  Sometimes we just need to experiment a bit to find the right answer, especially when there are multiple issues going on.  If her trim is good I'd think adding in the J-herb could help as well.




Re: Poly Copper for bleached coat?

 

Hi Karen!
This thread got split so this is a link to the initial question about Fhinland’s coat.

Could you please update your case history.  It’s been over a year since that was done.  I’m having some trouble understanding the ACTH results.  You have been doing regular TRH stim testing.  I gather that is something your vet insists upon because that test is only for diagnosis.  When a TRH Stim test is reported, there should be two values, before hormone stimulation and at a predetermined time after.  I only see one number for each test in your CH.  Also, where you have written “TRH Stim’ we really want to know the reference range for that lab for that test, similar to what you entered for insulin and glucose tests.  Also, by convention, we use periods (.) as a decimal point and commas (,) to divide numbers into sets of three for easier reading.  You have used commas but I’m thinking they were meant to be decimal points?  I noticed this when I looked at your first test value.  It would be very helpful if you could post copies of your actual test results, including the KSU report.  If you have digital copies, they can be added to you CH folder.  If they are hard copies, you can post them as photos in your album or convert them to pdf files to add to the CH.  Same with any hay tests you might have.

As Bobbie suggested, it would be hard to know if he needs added copper without knowing what he’s already getting in terms of copper and iron.  Even if the hay changes regularly, testing what you’re feeding now would probably be a good indicator as I recall from memory that his coat issues have been a long time concern.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Dr Kellon Please - Chicy Placentitis

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

SMZ can cause insulin to rise. Regumate is a synthetic progesterone. Progesterone causes the insulin resistance of pregnancy. Regumate worsens IR in mares with PCOS-like syndrome.  Did they say why the Regumate is recommended.

A red bag delivery is when the part of the placenta attached to the uterus (chorion) becomes detached prematurely during labor, depriving the foal of blood and oxygen. The foal needs to be delivered quickly.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: discontinuing boots? ....

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Sherry. I took her out of her boots but I am continuing to wrap her legs because its still cold here...with the boots off, she seems stiff wihen she makes a turn. She's slightly stiff with the boots on. I am thinking her arthritis is probably causing some discomfort- I am going to restart the mov-ease to see if it makes any difference. Mov ease did work before, but then suddenly it stopped working and I didn't realize she was experiencing a winter laminitis at the time. So, I think its time to retry it again? ...( i had tried it two years ago).  I also bought J- herb, but didn't try that as yet....
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: Help Stomp Out Bad Information

Nancy C
 

While safergrass has made a life work out of fructan, it is not just that website, but researchers and high profile vets who continue to carry this on.  It runs over into feed companies, supplement makers, other commercial enterprises.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



Re: Help Stomp Out Bad Information

melodie miller
 

I think the "Fructan is a problem" is mostly coming from "Safegrass.org".



--
Melodie Miller, Earleville Maryland
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melodie%20and%20Montserrat
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=207657


Re: Lavinia 1st Time Mark Up Request for Hiram Walker

Jamie Miller
 

Walker's next scheduled trim should be next Tuesday (4/12) or Wednesday (4/13). His last trim was about 6 weeks ago on 3/2/22.  He has been doing very well since his last major issue in 2019 when we put him in Sigafoos, no flare ups, no weight shifting, and xrays show he's stable. Since 3/17/22, he's been weight shifting on the fronts and is tentative when walking.  On 3/27/22, we increased his Prascend to 2 1/2 pills in the PM and will retest the week of 4/17/22. 

Thank you. 
--
Jamie Miller
Louisville, Kentucky, USA
July 2019
Horse: Hiram Walker
Walker Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jamie%20and%20Walker
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=93084
Link to Profile for Hiram Walker


Re: Dr Kellon Please - Chicy Placentitis

Bobbie Day
 

Janet
Chicy is one tough girl, sending lots of positive thoughts to you both.
She’s a fighter, keep us updated please?
--

Bobbie and Maggie 
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) 
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020, NAT, C&IR March 2021
ECIR Group Primary Response 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Poly Copper for bleached coat?

Bobbie Day
 


Re: Best approach for bad thrush and broken bar

Maxine McArthur
 

How satisfying to see that bar and frog cleaned up! And this is a great photo comparison to remind me to trim coronary band hairs before taking lateral photos. So much easier to see the proper shape and length of the hoof wall. CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Photo

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Best approach for bad thrush and broken bar

 

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I've done it all. When I did the last cleanup the day before my trimmer came, the frog lifted off up at the tip and was completely detached almost back to the heels. I used my #2 Felcos to cut off what I could. Thank you, Maxine. My trimmer cleaned up the rest and filled the collateral grooves, central sulcus and flares with Artimud. Most of it already popped out. The exfoliating sole lifted up like leaves of puff pastry on the lateral half the sole. I'm on the lookout for the same on the medial side. My vet and I are fine tuning medication to rule out metabolic contributions to the hoof wall flare. I uploaded a before and after shot of sole. 
 
There's a substantial distortion of the hoof walls (aka flaring) from the pillars back to the seed of corn that he is convinced is the result of mechanics (soundness issues including dropped fetlocks on 3 of 4 legs, hock pain behind). IOW she isn't using her hind end. That's a different discussion.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Trim for Sunny

Susan Carroll
 

Thank you, I will get ground pictures tomorrow


--
Susan C from GA 2022
Sunny Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Sunny
Sunny Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274055 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274055&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0 )


Re: Help Stomp Out Bad Information

Julie Allen
 

Kristen ; she was not my vet - just one online on my area who posted something that was not entirely true in fact it was false information about fructans the same fake news that Dr Kellon has been trying to beat down for a while now .:

- my issue was with her shutting me down when I addressed the false information in her comment - hence the note she wrote to me -- most vets in my area are way behind the curve in laminitis treatments . I keep an open communication with them smile and nod and then work  with the horse owner if possible -of horse owner does not follow our advice 100% we respectfully decline helping them .: it's seems rude but it's how I keep my sanity ..

I tell an owner who contacts me this right up front ...
so they make the choice - obviously I let them know diet , minerals , testing , turnout, trimming  everything involved in a rehab first so they can think about it ..it's a lot to take in .. 

my daughter and I both " attended " the conference last year /. I have yet to find a vet in the area who will even talk about  looking into anything ECIR related let alone read / post .. but I still get along with most of them . It is what it is .. 
--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132


Re: Dr Kellon Please - Chicy Placentitis

Frances C
 

Hi Janet, wonderful to see your mare running around on that video. She looks good and strong. See what you can do about getting mare colostrum from some milk bank - there are some. I used to donate colostrum (4-8 oz) whenever I could. In your area also I guess foaling season may be underway so check all the groups and vet clinics in your area. If you get some keep it frozen and hope that you don't have to use it. Also put your vet on standby the moment you think foaling is underway.  If the mare has no colostrum the vet can stomach feed the foal if it is weak or god forbid something happens to the mare, she can be milked out and the baby bottle fed. I once thought I had a red bag delivery and had the vet rush out but it was an inverted placenta and looked pretty darn red. I think a red bag delivery is when part of the uterus is expelled along with the foal and placenta. My heart is with you.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Help Stomp Out Bad Information

bakermouse
 

Thank you Nancy, I look forward to reading that.
--
Louise B, New Zealand, joined in 2021


Poly Copper for bleached coat?

Karen Anderson
 

Forgot to mention Fhinland is on 5.5 mg compounded pergolide mesylate. 
--
Karen and Fhinland in Maryland

Case Study:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Fhinland

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