Date   

Re: Started Emergency Diet with Splenda & June - need guidance please

 

Hi Angela,
The beet pulp is not necessary if the balance cubes are working for your horses.  The cubes have a bit of beet pulp in them as a binder.  I find the cubes easier to work with as a carrier than beet pulp, which requires more prep in terms of rinsing and soaking.

Keep in mind that we’ve found the balance cubes to be a better source of calories than hay so feeding 4 pounds of cubes is equivalent to 5 pounds of hay.  

Looking forward to your case history!
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Attn Lavinia - Hoof markups request please

Joy V
 
Edited

Thank you Sherry.  

That's what I thought I was told (prior trimmer) it was from, but I wanted to make sure.  I appreciate your reply!  :)

Joy


--
Joy and Willie (EC/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  Willie's Case History
Willie's photo album:  Willie's Photos


Re: Ally & high insulin continued, Zero

Mary T
 

Yes, I do need to do that history.  But cannot for a few days, due to work.  We have increased her Cabergoline as needed to control ACTH, since starting in 2018.


--
Mara & Ally
2006 PNW


Re: Started Emergency Diet with Splenda & June - need guidance please

Sherry Morse
 

Hello Angela,

As you don't own either of the horses you mentioned please make sure you read our Terms of Use carefully, particularly 4.d regarding posting about horses that you do not own.  





Re: Started Emergency Diet with Splenda & June - need guidance please

Adibrito
 

Thanks so much, Cindy! 
We are currently only using the TC Timothy Balance Forage Cubes because we are out of hay and about to cut some fields - so our hay is about 6 weeks out. We will do a hay analysis at that point. I was thinking the Balance Forage Cubes would be a good replacement for the hay - but if there's a better option, I'm all ears.

We are also using soaked and rinsed beet pulp - is that unnecessary?

In fact, we are transitioning our entire herd (3 additional horses with no evident metabolic issues - pasture grazing all day and night) from grain twice a day to a small bit of soaked cubes, beet pulp and added Vit E, ground flaxseed, salt and magnesium) and already noticing decreased inflammation and nicer coats. But now that I understand the cubes already contain magnesium, I'll drop that for all.

No testing has been done on the mares - they are each 19 years old. I'd like to do testing in the near future, but it's not my call since they aren't my horses.

I appreciate your help and will join the case history sub-group and start a Case History for each as soon as I can. So glad I found this group!

--
Angela D in TN 2022


Re: Laminitis Spike

Sherry Morse
 

Robin,

Dr. Kellon already answered your question:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/277488




Re: Laminitis Spike

Robin
 

Thank you! That is super helpful!

Question: Dr. Kellon had suggested I give Phyto-Quench and Laminox. Then on another thread, she suggested I ive Jiaogulan. So, my question is, should Jiaogulan be given together with Laminox? Or do I give one or the other? I see Jiaogulan is also an ingredient in Laminox. I'm not sure if the goal was to give some Jiaogulan or an increased amount by giving additional to what is already in Laminox
--
Robin

Aiken, SC 2022

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Robin%20and%20Hogan  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275012


Re: Attn Lavinia - Hoof markups request please

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Joy,

"Blood" in the white line is evidence of old bruising coming out and isn't surprising to see it after a laminitis event or a mechanical trauma (you can refer to this older post from Dr. Kellon on that: Re: Bleeding showing in the white line (groups.io)).  I'll let Lavinia comment on 'heels being too high results in blood in the white line' but the word 'hooey' comes to mind. 




Re: Attn Lavinia - Hoof markups request please

Joy V
 

Thank you Lavinia!!!  So grateful for your help and expertise.  Fingers crossed and saying prayers this trimmer will agree to do what you've suggested.

Question for all responders:  This new trimmer expressed concern about blood in the white line on his FR.  This is something I've seen many times in his fronts with a fresh trim, and it has never seemed to affect his soundness.  I am thinking it's due to the shape of his foot and the mis-alignment going on?  New trimmer said for me not to rasp his fronts back because it causes the heels to be too high and that it results in the blood in the white line.  What, if anything, can I tell her about this issue?  Is it a serious problem?  TIA.

Joy
--
Joy and Willie (EC/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  Willie's Case History
Willie's photo album:  Willie's Photos


Re: Laminitis Spike

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You don't need the Jiaogulan if feeding LaminOX.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Dually Top Line

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Kim,

Yes to both.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Giving Invokana

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

That is a mild to moderate elevation. I'm sure if they were checked routinely we would find a lot more horses in that category.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Ally & high insulin continued, Zero

 
Edited

Hi Mara,
This is a bit difficult to follow without the case history to review.  I’d be happy to try to help you get started on a new one if you like.  As others have said, start with Ally’s situation at present.  If concerns arise about her past, we will ask and you can add those details as needed.

You have Ally on cabergoline.  She’s been on the same dose for a number of years.  Have you considered increasing her dose, either in amount or frequency?  PPID is a progressive disease and it’s expected that she would need an increased dose with age.  You mentioned increased pee, which as Dr. Kellon says is a sign of uncontrolled PPID.  I had my horse on cabergoline for awhile, before I lost him to a colic.  I increased to higher doses than were first recommended in order to control his symptoms.  When I reached that point, he looked incredible for a 31 year old horse.  Those larger pee spots are one thing you can monitor but you may notice other symptoms of advancing PPID as well to pay attention to.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Ally & high insulin continued, Zero

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Mary

You are working very hard for your girl. I wanted to offer a couple of thoughts.

ECIR does not recommend canola.

Regarding EMS/IR and inflammation, equines are not the same as humans.  Have a look please at Dr Kellon's 2017 NO Laminitis Conference proceeding

Inflammation in Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)

You can down load it for free here https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2017.php

TRH was hopefully done in your absence. PPID can drive higher insulin. If it is the Zero, you'll know after it has been withdrawn, although I agree with Sherry the re-draw could have been a tad early.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



Re: Managed EMS but increased insulin and differing test types/terms

Laura and Ero
 

Thanks Dr Kellon. Last year was bad and something I don’t want to repeat, hence my vigilance. Thanks to you/ECIR for the learnings and for this reassurance. 

--
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Erin, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album


Re: Sleep deprivation, depression, decreased appetite...PPID related?

Lesley Fraser
 

Hi Stephanie

Just a thought, but regarding dragging her foot/feet when she isn’t on solid ground outside and possible loss of feeling, it might be worth having some blood tests done on Katie for tick-borne infections. If you’ve seen a tick crawling up her leg, it’s highly likely there will have been others that have attached themselves to her and dropped off again before you noticed - nymph ticks are the size of a poppy seed, and difficult to spot even when you’re looking for them. The symptoms you describe in Katie, including disrupted sleep patterns, are common in humans with tick-borne infections.



--
Lesley and over the bridge Omar,
11-2012, Sutherland, UK

Omar - Case History


Re: Ally & high insulin continued, Zero

Mary T
 
Edited

I was very unfortunately unable to be at the vet appt due to a migraine, so BO took over.  Frustrating.  I would have insisted on a few things different. I had them do lateral rads out of an abundance of caution.  They were very good, no issues.

I am convinced the cause is the Zero.  I was a bit concerned when I started it, but it was what I had & Ally was OK with it as a carrier.  This elevated insulin seems to be directly correlated to the feed change, though I understand correlation is not causation :).  Ally’s labs have been excellent up until now— ACTH mid normal, insulin 8 then 15 (sometimes, she snags a weed through the fence) since the first of the year.  She is easily shedding her coat.  We stopped the Zero & put her back on the soaked hay as soon as you responded—pulses now gone.

I’ve been digging into the ingredients of the Zero more & remembering Ally’s history from 2006-2008, & even prior.  Here is something I read:
The “roughage products” in Zero are canola meal.  I personally avoid anything to do with canola, as it is one of the worst oils, very highly processed using hexane solvent.  The meal is a by-product.  It’s full of omega-6 & highly pro-inflammatory.  (BTW I am a retired nurse with a bit of knowledge about human nutrition).
Here’s a bit more about canola:  https://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-canola-oil/#axzz3KUUalqWk  
The lupine flakes are a legume grown in Australia.  
Rice bran oil is high omega-6 & pro-inflammatory.  
So 2 of 3 primary ingredients are highly pro-inflammatory.  I don’t touch them myself.  I won’t feed them to my dog.  Until I thought I had nothing else, I did not feed them to Ally except in small amounts as a carrier or to make her “soup”.  IF her insulin is not a fluke (that’s what vet thought & why she redrew), I’m suspicious it’s driven by inflammation.  We know inflammation drives IR.
The percentage of fat in Zero is 4%.  I know from experience that fat will drive IR in Ally.  I wish I had all my years of notes.  I have tried complete low carb
feeds with higher fat levels years ago, IE 2007-2008, then tested insulin.  Invariably, low carb complete feeds w/ fat (except 2-4 OZ flax) drove up insulin.  Every time.
The rice bran oil is the third ingredient on the label.  If the Zero puts her dietary at 4% pro-inflammatory omega-6’s, & what Dr. Kellon advises in the files is to stay under 3-4% fats at most for a horse w/ PPID/ IR, then I would have no room to add omega-3’s, which she must have.  (BTW, we’ve been giving her 2-4 OZ flax, didn’t help—I think the ratio was still off).
For 16 years, the only fat she’s had is 2-4 OZ flax/day—so switching to a diet with 4% fat from rice bran oil is not a good thing at all.  I’m not surprised in retrospect her insulin popped up—I think the pro-inflammatory food drove it up.  I think maybe the product works with a less sensitive horse—but not Ally.
I recognize canola is in everything now & is touted as a healthy product.  But it’s not.  I think marketing, money, & bad science.  But I also don’t agree with the entire way the US eats—high carb, processed food, high use of seed & canola oils—> epidemic of pre-diabetes, IR, diabetes —> heart disease, Alzheimer’s, etc.
If I had known about the low carb teff hay pellets, that’s where I would have started, & that’s where I want her.  They are pure hay, rather than byproducts made using toxic solvents & full of omega-6’s.

I thought about Metformin.  I want to eliminate the Zero first.  Same with additional PPID testing.  In 2006, when I first contacted Dr. K, Ally had been put on rice bran oil.  Dr. K. had me take her off it, as she said it would drive her IR.  I had to reach back 16 years to remember.

Ally comes first, always.  The thing that bothers me is Ally looks fabulous & not at all like 26.  She does VERY well.  I would be riding her but for a period of insane work.  And no, I am not in denial.  BTW, she is on 2.9 cc Cabergoline every 10 days, since 2018.
Thank you so much!

RE canola oil from Mark Sisson:

Canola was a hybrid derived from rapeseed to reduce the high erucic acid content of traditional rapeseed oil, which had a bitter taste and toxic effects from the acid. Canola oil is also called LEAR (Low Erucic Acid Rapeseed). Like most cash crops, the largest share of the market is by far GMO-based, and one corporate GMO giant, Monsanto, has been accused more than once of the release of unapproved GMO seed varieties. Despite all the genetic engineering, somehow canola remains one of the most heavily pesticide-treated crops. Hmmm – wonder how that all works.

Continuing on the canola’s journey now…. Once harvested and graded, seeds are heated to facilitate oil extraction. Most canola oil is chemically extracted using the harsh petroleum-derived solvent hexane. Even when expeller pressing is used, a process common to organic brands, the massive force of industrial presses still produces heat. True “cold-pressed” canola oil (extracted with millstones) does exist but can be hard to find and is more expensive.

Following extraction, canola oil must be de-gummed to remove unappealing solids that settle during storage. The process involves heat and sometimes the addition of acids. Next stop, the oil is then bleached and separated. Finally, the oil (known for its stench) must be deodorized through heating methods that use temperatures as high as 500 Fahrenheit.

(Frankly, the whole process is rather unappetizing if you ask me. Seriously.)

This brings us back to the omega-3 issue. Polyunsaturated fats aren’t the most stable fats out there. In fact, they’re pretty sensitive to heat and will turn rancid quickly. Obviously, canola oil undergoes a good deal of heating and heat-related degeneration in its processing. Needless to say, this is no good. Whatever omega-3 benefit there might have been is gone – like keys in lava, as one of the old Jack Handey quotes put it. What’s more is, you end up with a small but damaging amount of trans fat in your “heart healthy” oil. How’s that for irony?

My thinking is this: why bother with something so processed and unhealthy when there are umpteen other, better options out there? 



 as I r as I reach back in time & memory, I recall what Dr. Kellon specifically advised me when we first contacted her for help & nutritional advice after Ally’s PPID diagnosis.  At that time, a vet had put Ally on a high fat diet with rice bran oil, because she had tied up years prior.  Dr. K was not pleased about the oil for Ally.  She did not like Ally on the oil & said it was most likely exacerbating her IR.  As you know, just being Arabian, she’s going to be baseline IR.  We took her off the oil, along with her soaked hay—with huge improvement.  After that, as below, I experimented with complete feeds w/ oil with poor results.
I understand PSSM horses need oil.  But maybe they’re not sensitive thrifty Arabians.each back in time & memory, I recall what Dr. Kellon specifically advised me when we first contacted her for help & nutritional advice after Ally’s PPID diagnosis.  At that time, a vet had put Ally on a high fat diet with rice bran oil, because she had tied up years prior.  Dr. K was not pleased about the oil for Ally.  She did not like Ally on the oil & said it was most likely exacerbating her IR.  As you know, just being Arabian, she’s going to be baseline IR.  We took her off the oil, along with her soaked hay—with huge improvement.  After that, as below, I experimented with complete feeds w/ oil with poor results.
I understand PSSM horses need oil.  But maybe they’re not sensitive thrifty Arabians.

 as I reach back in time & memory, I recall what Dr. Kellon specifically advised me when we first contacted her for help & nutritional advice after Ally’s PPID diagnosis.  At that time, a vet had put Ally on a high fat diet with rice bran oil, because she had tied up years prior.  Dr. K was not pleased about the oil for Ally.  She did not like Ally on the oil & said it was most likely exacerbating her IR.  As you know, just being Arabian, she’s going to be baseline IR.  We took her off the oil, along with her soaked hay—with huge improvement.  After that, as below, I experimented with complete feeds Arabians.
--
Mara & Ally
2006 PNW


Re: Laminitis Spike

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Re: Attn Lavinia - Hoof markups request please

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Joy,

I've added mark-ups to Willie's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275142

The toes on all his feet are way too far forward and the heels are seriously underrun - hinds much worse than the fronts. Good that you've been moving them back - just need a lot more of that, esp. at ground level. The idea is to get the breakover back into alignment with where the bony column needs it to be and to get the entire hoof capsule back under the leg. Frogs are atrophied and elongated and the bars look to be flaking off, as they also appear to be overgrown. There is some wall flaring - lateral on both hinds and medial on the LF. Due to the calcification (fusing) of the pastern bones on the RF you don't want to change the palmer angle when trimming as there is no changing the orientation of that bony column. But you can certainly move the breakover into the correct position to help that foot move more efficiently.

It looks like there is a fair amount of overall excess vertical height available to work with, as it doesn't appear that much has changed since the 2015 rads were done. Measure both collateral groove depths in each foot after cleaning them out all the way to the bottom. At their deepest point, you want both to be 1". Up toward the tip of the frog, you want 3/4". Anything more than that indicates excess vertical height that can be removed.

LF dorsal: Green line follows the angle of the hoof all the way to the ground. Blue area is where the flaring needs to be removed on the medial side.

LF lateral: Green line shows where the dorsal wall would be if the toe wasn't so far out ahead of where it needs to be and the heels weren't so underrun. It's NOT a trim line, just a visual. Orange shows where the heels should line up. Blue area is where to back the toe a lot - thru what appears to be the white line at ground level -  and to lower the entire foot from front to back. This will also start to move the heels back under the leg.

LF sole plane: Blue line shows where to lower the entire foot to.

LF sole: Solid blue line at the toe is where to back it up to, with the blue hashed area all the excess horizontal toe length. Blue hashes along the entire perimeter indicate to lower the entire foot. Lime hashes run along the bars, which also need to be lowered. Frogs need to get into ground contact, so no trimming of them unless they are peeling off - then just remove the peeling parts but don't cut more to make it "nice and shiny" - the waxy frog should not be exposed.

RF lateral radiograph: I marked this up to show what should have happened at that time. It clearly shows there is a lot of excess vertical height - and the current foot doesn't appear to be much different. Green line shows where the dorsal wall should be. Pink line follows the bony column alignment to the ground, where the breakover should be - there should be no foot at ground level beyond this point. Orange line is where the heels should be. Blue lines show where the toe should have been taken back and where the entire hoof capsule should have been lowered to. Blue X is the excess toe length and the blue hashes are all the extra vertical length.

RF lateral: Same idea as the rad: Green and orange lines are the same as on the rad and are only visual markers for where those structure should be. Blue area corresponds to the blue X on the rad and the blue area along the bottom of the foot.

RF sole: Again, blue is the excess foot across the entire bottom of the foot. Lime runs along the overgrown bars that can use some cleaning up.

LH dorsal: blue area is the lateral flare that needs to be removed

LH lateral: Same idea as the fronts but the heels are more crushed under.

LH sole: Follow the discussion for the fronts.

RH dorsal: Same as the LH, with the lateral flare. There is also a high spot at about 2 o'clock, where the growth rings consistently bulge upward. That should level off when you lower the entire foot.

RH lateral: Same as the LH.

RH sole: Same general idea as the LH. You can clearly see the high, crumbling bars, heavily flaking sole and even the tip of the frog looks ready to shed off.

Once the trim gets squared away, he should be a lot more comfortable. If he needs padded boots, make sure that there are aggressive bevels/rockers added to the treads at the toes and across the backs of the heels. Something like the Easyboot clouds might be helpful as the pads will squish down and conform to the nooks and crannies along the bottom of each foot.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Laminitis Spike

Robin
 

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 04:14 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
Jiaogulan
Good Evening Dr. Kellon,

Thank you for your detailed guidance. It is very helpful.
Should the Jiaogulan be give along with the Laminox as well? Can you recommend a good source for Jiaogulan? I see that Ukele is out. Also, what would the correct amount be for a ~250 lb miniature horse?
 
--
Robin

Aiken, SC 2022

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Robin%20and%20Hogan  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275012

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