Date   

MSM, after loading dose?

cloud9gaits <cloud9gaits@...>
 

3 of my horses are on MSM. I noted in your HJ article that 20,000
mg/day was recommended. That is what they consider the loading dose
that you would cut back after the time table they describe. Would you
ever recommend keeping a horse on the loading dose continually?
Paula


Re: feed analysis help needed -How many ways can I plead?

cloud9gaits <cloud9gaits@...>
 

I have 3 horses who wear muzzles every day. They get used to them,
even putting their heads in when you hold them out. They have
wonderful, active, complete lives...they even mutual groom with their
muzzles! They look forward to their low sugar hay when they come in
and I can't for a moment imagine them (or me) choosing grass over
death. Once the metabolic issues are under control, the rest is easy.
Paula


Re: mold in hay

leah <eastrup@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Eleanor Kellon, VMD"
<drkellon@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., repete134@ wrote:

Also common are
decreased appetite, gut upset/colic, poor body condition, poor hair
coat, elevated liver enzymes, lethargy.

Eleanor
Thank you to everone for the replys. This is how I am proceeding at
this point. I did contact the farmer. He was very nice and of course
we will not have to pay for the bales we could not use. He supplies
alot of people and has not had any other complaints, so we are hoping
that maybe the 50 bales we picked up were a fluke and the other 250
bales will be better. We will be keeping a close eye on it.
My chiropractor/wholistic vet is coming soon. She uses muscle
testing. I don't know how people here feel about that, but myself and
many peole I know have had wonderful results with her, she has always
been right on the money. She will test the hay and then there are
some homeopathic remedies as well as herbal liver formulas we will
look at based on what she finds.
I was also looking at these products, BIO SPONGE from Platinum
Performance and a Milk thistle herbal blend from hilton herbs. I will
look at these with her when she comes, but would also love the input
from the group(so much knowledge here). Thaks so much,

Leah


Re: feed analysis help needed -How many ways can I plead?

Karen <karen@...>
 

I have been through so many struggles with Tilly over the last 3
years I cannot count them. She has been so sick I would sit in her
stall and cry my heart out. The she gets better and she is so full
of life that I wonder what I was so upset about. This has happened
many times, but she has never looked at me and said it is time. She
has been feeling great for several weeks, then yesterday I came out
to feed in the morning and there she was down on the ground and
didn't want to get up. I couldn't believe it. What is going on? I
padded her boots really well and let her rest. She would get up, but
was walking very poorly. Today the farrier came (yes on a Sunday)
and scaped a little sole from both feet and there was dried blood
there on both feet in the toe area. Now if all can remember she had
a laminitis attach back in August when she got into the bucket of bad
food. So Randy said I really think she is trying to abscess. I
cannot tell you how happy that made me. Some might think I am nuts,
but I can deal with a couple abscesses over laminitis anyday. So I
have a poultice on both feet along with diapers and her boots. She
is laying down, but looks bright. Does this sound plausible to all
of you?
Anyway back to my story. Your horse can be really happy without
grass. I have two that will never have it and they are very happy.
Tilly has struggled to stay on this earth and I will give her every
opportunity until she tells me it is time to go.
Karen, Chantilly and Tommi--- In
EquineCushings@..., "Eleanor Kellon, VMD" <drkellon@...>
wrote:


--- In EquineCushings@..., lindarollins38@ wrote:

Is dying in the next few years, with grass between his teeth,
better than living another 10, head hanging low in the pasture,
miserable, w/ a muzzle hanging from his face, BUT with great labs,
only then to founder, or colic, with no return....


Re: with profound gratitude

lindarollins38@...
 

The best & worst day of this fall were the same day: my horse was diagnosed with cushings & I found this group.



http://www.sportshorses.com/cases/rollinslinda.Peanut.htm


Reliability of Cushing's testing

Kathy Newcomb <KMNukem@...>
 

I was recently contacted by a lady about her mare in her mid teens with
some clinical signs of (at least) insulin resistance. She had excessive
thirst, laminitis, loss of muscling along the top line, and a long hair
coat, which seems more suggestive of Cushing's, even though she might
be a tad on the young side for Cushing's. She was tested for Cushing's
and thyroid (just in case, I guess) and both tests came back negative.
I am curious whether false negative tests for Cushing's are commonly
(or perhaps infrequently) encountered. If so, does anyone have
information about the factors that cause these false positives? The
laminitis was too severe in this mare for her to be saved and she was
euthanized a little over a week ago. I don't believe a positive test
result would have saved her, but I am interested for future reference
about the reliablility of testing. Thanks for any help that can be
provided.

Kathy Newcomb
Blythewood Farm Morgans
Stockton, NJ
Visit us on the web at http://www.blythewoodfarm.com


Re: What do i need to do to see improvement?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "mel" <mel832001@...> wrote:

My horse is still no better.
D: Diagnosis.

You know he's insulin resistant. He's a bit young for Cushing's and
with no worsening in the fall the seasonal rise doesn't sound like
an issue but you never know unless you test.

D: Diet (no drugs needed)

You really need to get your hay tested to make sure it's low enough.
I'd drop the other two feeds, just feed a few ounces of ground flax.
You need to know the minerals in the hay so that you can balance it.
It can make a big difference.

T: Trim

Please post hoof photos - side, front, back and sole view.

Eleanor


Re: with profound gratitude

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

Well, it's sure been a wonderful day for eloquent, heart-felt and
inspirational posts. I'm proud to know all of you!

Eleanor


What do i need to do to see improvement?

mel
 

My horse is still no better.

Hes been wrong a year now. hes been barefoot since march. since about
may hes been the same soundness wise. he toe flicks, gets sore just
before trimming if left too long (currently going 3 weeks) and sore
after trimming for a day or so. his last laminitis attack was january.

he was stabled 24/7 and i've slowly upped his time outside. hes in a
very bare patch and has a staple diet of soaked hay. he is fed twice
daily on hi-fi lite, speedi beet, and then magnesium, cinnamon, yea-
saac, a herbal laminitis supplement/liver detox from global herbs and
a general purpose supplement. i have also tried jiagulan.

it seems no matter what i do hes no worse. but no better either!? hes
now happy and able to go outside at least but hes not any sounder. he
will amble on concrete slowly but is booted for all hard surfaces.
he'll happily walk round the field/school but hes not sound. hes short
and also unlevel at the front. his right foot has been worse the whole
way through.

his feet look visably better than 6 months ago. better shape and WLD
growing out. i soak them to prevent infection.

he costs me a fortune to keep. going down twice a day. living on hay
and all these supplements. sometimes i carry on and forget about it
but other times i feel fed up. i have a horse i cant ride that cant
lead a normal life.

hes about right weight wise. you can see his ribs but i think because
hes not worked. from behind hes not thin and hes got weight elsewhere.
i'd say hes about right. hes a 14.2hh welsh cob. 14 years old. vet
said hes not a cushings type and hasnt tested. though i did have some
basic bloods run and each came back within the labs 'normal' range.
his glucose/insulin ration actually worked out at 2.9 or something
though. he looks better than he did back then, no fat pads about eyes
etc. but hes still not right feet wise.

will he ever be? (x rays were last taken in feb. showed nothing
significant at the time).


Re: Climate Summary

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "partnernaturally"
<meadowlarkdba@...> wrote:

Hey all where do we go to find out the data for our area for the
climate. Seems like Dr. K

I think what I put up was just drought monitoring. Not sure what
you're after but try this:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/monitoring_and_data/

Eleanor


Re: Eleanor--Was re. jiaogulan administration;now joint supplements * MSM

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lynnberghs" <lberghs@...>
wrote:

Have I got it???
Yep! and with winter coming remember leg wraps can make a big
difference with old lower leg issues.

Eleanor


Re: with profound gratitude

rita@...
 

Linda,

It takes a lot of courage to make changes, proud of you to do this too! I
know my girls don’t necessarily like being muzzled either. They will
practically beg to stay in the dry lot (or now mud lot) instead of being
able to go out to the pasture with the muzzle on.

If I’m planning on sending them out anyway, one thing I try to do is I go
ahead and give them their pulp/minerals and about ½ their hay for the
feeding, leave them in the stall for an hour or so to finish all this meal,
then kick them out with the muzzles on. I am usually doing this in the
evenings so it’s easier for me to do the stall feedings.

Comparing mine to a friend’s horse (who she doesn’t have the willpower and
courage that we try to have) who isn’t muzzled, mine look 90% better than
they did one year ago when I found I needed this group! My friend’s horse
is still overweight and I’m sure struggling with both Cushings and IR
issues. I’ve tried all I can with encouraging them to make simple changes,
but they find it too hard to understand the real issues. :-( Is he happy?
I’m not sure, at least he’s not foundered yet….



Anyway, glad that you have the courage to keep up. I’m sure Peanut will
understand. As a vet tech, I know we give our pets much more human
qualities than they may or may not have. I sure hope they have some of
them, but maybe their short term memories (I hope that’s one) will forgive
us for our mistakes as well!



Best of luck! Keep up the good work!

Rita

Indiana



I love your message as well. He’s a very lucky horse!


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Re: with profound gratitude

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

Linda,this is one of the most beautifully worded messages I have ever
read.
I'm leaving it all here for the sake of any other member who is
struggling with "all of it", and may take heart from your words .
It's called passing it forward,and you're doing it in spades.
I also love the way you introduced him to his muzzle,as opposed to
the way you said you were going to do it in your previous post.Whole
different attitude, and support for him.

Good on you!

Lorna


What a sweet joy to wake up this morning, and find all the messages
from all you wonderful, kind people, (and thank you, even for the
kick
in the pants.) I was really feeling everything negative last night -
despair, frustration, hopelessness, cowardice - you name the
disempowering emotions, I was swimming in them all.
Then I went to the barn early on this lovely New England fall
morning,
put the saddle on the 'Nut, and we went for a long walk in a wide
open
field, crossed a deep stream, and we had a chat. He was perky and
alert, so much less foot sore, ears up, dipping his face in the
water
like he was snorkeling, trotting along with ease and a spring in his
step. And I made a commitment to him to do everything in my power to
keep him safe and comfortable, as I slid the grazing muzzle on as I
was leaving, I kissed his star and assured him that this was
necessary
for him to get better.
I have been looking for reasons NOT to have to do this to him.
He is a retired school horse, one that my daughter leased all
through
high school, a prelim event horse, 4 foot jumper, courageous &
fearless (and a little wacky!)When she was graduating, he faced an
uncertain future because he was not an "easy" ride. I had produced
the
school's (Stoneleigh Burnham School)horse show brochure & prize
list,
and in lieu of the $3,000 I should have been paid for the job, I
asked
for Peanut. After the graduation ceremony, I ran down to the barn &
walked him up to the quad, with a HUGE blue ribbon around his neck,
and he became "ours." My daughter & I eased him back into being a
real
horse, not locked in a stall for 23 hours a day, but being able to
wander & graze at will. It took a month to acclimate him to pasture,
but he took to being a horse with ease and gratitude, and in my
naivety, I always assumed he would be able to graze freely. This has
been the hardest part for ME with the muzzle, and feeling like I
have
broken my promise to him. So today, I made a new promise to him, and
it includes the muzzle.
Thank you all again for your words of support, encouragement and
knowledge. I wrap myself in them with profound gratitude and
appreciation.


with profound gratitude

Linda <lindarollins38@...>
 

What a sweet joy to wake up this morning, and find all the messages
from all you wonderful, kind people, (and thank you, even for the kick
in the pants.) I was really feeling everything negative last night -
despair, frustration, hopelessness, cowardice - you name the
disempowering emotions, I was swimming in them all.
Then I went to the barn early on this lovely New England fall morning,
put the saddle on the 'Nut, and we went for a long walk in a wide open
field, crossed a deep stream, and we had a chat. He was perky and
alert, so much less foot sore, ears up, dipping his face in the water
like he was snorkeling, trotting along with ease and a spring in his
step. And I made a commitment to him to do everything in my power to
keep him safe and comfortable, as I slid the grazing muzzle on as I
was leaving, I kissed his star and assured him that this was necessary
for him to get better.
I have been looking for reasons NOT to have to do this to him.
He is a retired school horse, one that my daughter leased all through
high school, a prelim event horse, 4 foot jumper, courageous &
fearless (and a little wacky!)When she was graduating, he faced an
uncertain future because he was not an "easy" ride. I had produced the
school's (Stoneleigh Burnham School)horse show brochure & prize list,
and in lieu of the $3,000 I should have been paid for the job, I asked
for Peanut. After the graduation ceremony, I ran down to the barn &
walked him up to the quad, with a HUGE blue ribbon around his neck,
and he became "ours." My daughter & I eased him back into being a real
horse, not locked in a stall for 23 hours a day, but being able to
wander & graze at will. It took a month to acclimate him to pasture,
but he took to being a horse with ease and gratitude, and in my
naivety, I always assumed he would be able to graze freely. This has
been the hardest part for ME with the muzzle, and feeling like I have
broken my promise to him. So today, I made a new promise to him, and
it includes the muzzle.
Thank you all again for your words of support, encouragement and
knowledge. I wrap myself in them with profound gratitude and appreciation.


Re: Eleanor--Was re. jiaogulan administration;now joint supplements * MSM

lynnberghs <lberghs@...>
 

I am unclear as to whether MSM is advisable or not--


If the horse is clearly benefiting from it, it's certainly better
than something like long term NSAIDs. If not, there's really no
reason for use it because the potential cons automatically outweigh
any benefit.

Eleanor

I can't really say that it's helping him--he's been on a joint supplement with MSM in it for
years! And he has so many different issues going on. Sounds like you'd recommend:

-deleting the MSM from his joint supplement
-modify dosing of chondroitin to 5,000 mg. and glucosamine to 7500 mg
-discontinue the grapeseed, devil's claw & bute (have already done that)

-trying jiaogulan at higher-end dose of 1 tsp. per day

-if the J doesn't help, go back and try Devil's Claw, but at 3000-5000 mg/day instead of
the 1500 mg he currently gets

Have I got it???

Thanks!
Lynn


Re: Viva Total / Marketing

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

"Does not contain sugar or starch!" Then the
ingrediants are apple juice and cane sugar!
Just to add insult to injury,Kathleen,I saw a program on CBC the other
night about apple juice concentrates ,used in grocery store apple
juices,coming from China,being reconstituted here,and
labelled "Product of Canada".

... and fructose, carrots, bananna juice.
Ain't natural either.
Magnesium stearate, aka soap scum, filler. Creatine monohydrate is a
synthetic form of creatine, found in MEAT ONLY, used by human
bodybuilders but conclusively shown in multiple studies to not be
absorbed by horses, probably because it sits in the stomach too long
and gets converted to creatinine, a toxic waste excreted by the
kidneys.

Eleanor
I should probably be sent to my room by Sunday's Hall Monitor
(oh,wait...),but this is really important stuff and bears taking a
close look at,in terms of what we *think* we're buying and what we are
*actually* buying.
And as usual our horses pay the biggest price.



Lorna


Climate Summary

partnernaturally <meadowlarkdba@...>
 

Hey all where do we go to find out the data for our area for the climate. Seems like Dr. K
put a link on here a while back to show the patterns but I cant find it.

Sharon


Re: Viva Total / Marketing

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Kathleen Gustafson"
<katmando@...> wrote:

"Does not contain sugar or starch!" Then the
ingrediants are apple juice and cane sugar! Priceless! Oh no, wait,
it's not priceless, it's $10 a pound!! But it's "natural!"
... and fructose, carrots, bananna juice. Ain't natural either.
Magnesium stearate, aka soap scum, filler. Creatine monohydrate is a
synthetic form of creatine, found in MEAT ONLY, used by human
bodybuilders but conclusively shown in multiple studies to not be
absorbed by horses, probably because it sits in the stomach too long
and gets converted to creatinine, a toxic waste excreted by the
kidneys.

Pass.

Eleanor


Re: Viva Total / Marketing

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "briarskingstonnet" <briars@...>
wrote:

Am I way off base here,or is this product waving a red flag for those
of us with compromised horses,contrary to the company's claims?
I like to use these as examples as in "What's wrong with this picture?"
I send them to people I balance for and see if they can spot the hype.
This one is classic! "Does not contain sugar or starch!" Then the
ingrediants are apple juice and cane sugar! Priceless! Oh no, wait,
it's not priceless, it's $10 a pound!! But it's "natural!"

Nice glossy web site. Looks prettier than me mixing a few pennies worth
of minerals in my basement.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)


Re: feed analysis help needed -How many ways can I plead?

Vicki Kline <vlk@...>
 

And I look at Dazzle now. I'll do the hard things for this.
We need to save this story in the files!! Hall Monitors - can we?

Thanks, Joan, for the encouragement. Awesome job with your Dazzle :)

Vicki

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