Hi Sandy. To answer your question about feeding all "wet" food...Dry hay is only dry until the pony chews it and its mixed with saliva and swallowed. Through out the entire GI tract, gastric secretions  are added to the food...whether it is wet or dry food...the body does not change its processing of feed.  Fresh grass has a very high water content.  So, that is not "dry" either. He will absorb water from the GI tract via the body's mechanisms. He will supplement if he is thirsty. 

If you are interested in estimating how much water he is actually ingesting in his wet feeds, you can weigh the food dry and then measure it again after being soaked. the difference will be your water weight. ( if you are soaking in a hay net, it will absorb water too, so you need to subtract off the wet hay net weight). Once you get your weight differences you can convert that into gallons...I use 1.5 Gallons of water to wet my ponies feed 2 times a day...so she ingests 3 gallons of water just from her food. And she has 3 gallons hanging in her stall. Sometimes, she drinks more than other times. Her manure is not dry and has a nice moist sheen to it. I feed salt too. Once I weighed everything, I felt better about how much she was already ingesting. 
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Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Primary Responder

New CH for Dolly  https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=50  
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993     

My Haflinger mare with controlled Cushings and normal insulin 22 and glucose 79 has always been on first cutting.   Owners tested their hay from Dairy one to find out first cutting of NSC was 13.76 and 2nd was 8.57 and third was 7.36.   I would like to transition her to second cutting.  I don’t want her gaining weight with too much protein.   

she eats hay with muzzle on all day and in at night to maintain and lose a little bit of weight.   She is on dry lot otherwise and tx with Prescend.   She’s exercised 3-4 x weekly.  No grain.  Supplements are California Trace and HA powder; Vit e and omega oil.  

please let me know what your thoughts are.   I don’t see where I can upload the hay results of all the hay otherwise I would so you have more info.   Please let me know and I will upload.  

thank you so much.  
Rosalyn in IL, 2017

I just wonder if it is working at all because it's been frozen. I need a new jar and will leave that in the house.


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PamHinWi2023

https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=77

Nancy and Martha - Thank You for your technical support! 
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Judy S in NM 2023
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Rosa  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=284031

It depends on whether her insulin is under control. By that, I mean, she's recovered, able to exercise, ideal body condition and carefully monitored. Every horse is different, but the bottom line is her insulin level. I was able to allow grazing for my gelding starting with short periods after work, then longer periods with a muzzle, then towards the end of his life, practically full time grazing to maintain weight. He was an exception, going from extremely malnourished to obese on pasture only, had a brief bout with IR and laminitis, fully recovered and went back to work without any more issues related to IR for the next 16 years. However, I managed him carefully over those 16 years. 

Keep in mind too, that insulin responds in lock-step with the sugar/starch in the grass. This will vary with season and sunlight. The grasses in SW Colorado (I used to live in Durango) are different than what we have in Missouri and the cooler nights may also play a role. Generally speaking, sugar peaks with sunlight and early growth. There is research showing that insulin increases and peaks in grazing non-IR horses during April and May in Virginia pastures, well above "normal" insulin levels. An IR horse grazing those same pastures would have markedly higher insulin, possibly developing laminitis. 

In the end, like many answers, "it depends." It depends on how well your horse responds to carbohydrate control and whether their insulin values return to something manageable with exercise. If so, carefully managed grazing might be possible if you remain vigilant. IR is not "one and done." Those horses prone to it will require more careful management to avoid repeated laminitis, but it is worth the effort for many more years with a fine companion.
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Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 

OMG Lorna, thank you SO much!!  That is exactly what I needed.  I did do my own search before posting but did not find those.  Dr K had previously told me to use KSU and what to test for, but I did not grasp that it was the ferritin test that could only be done there.
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Nancy O, Elbert County, CO, 2022

Thank you Trisha! 

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Kimberly Beck
Golden, Colorado
2023
https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=95

Thanks Cass, I was more comfortable with the LF coincidentally and actually thought I got that one further back and under control 🤣🤣

I got a little nervous when I felt a soft line of tissue on both fronts, --will add those images-- it is in the middle of the laminar wedge from the front.  

Right now we are staying with clogs because my vet thinks we need them.  I trust her instincts, so for now I will go with that :)

Thanks so much!!!
Nan

Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

Nan,
Nice work! It might just be the camera angle, but were you were more comfortable on the RF than the LF, so you made more progress? Did you rasp to the gas pocket on the RF? 

Are you open to the possibility that Vinnie will need both the trim and some kind of padding+boot or padded removable shoe to be comfortable walking? IOW, it's possible he may not get comfortable on clogs. They may have served their purpose. My trimmer  reminds me that a certain pad, boot or a glue-on works until it doesn't.

It's best if you have new rads and you're at a good enough place with the trim to leave it alone until you get mark-ups. You don't want to change the trim after you take the rads and post the pix -- the frog markers on the rads will correlate to the photos you post, providing landmarks to work with. I also highly recommend trimming Vinnie's coronets before photos so you can clearly see the entire hoof wall. Half an inch of hair cover a lot of hoof wall!

Next trim, practice taking a sole shot using the hoof stand with the front hoof in the sling. It's really helpful if you need to take sole photos alone without a helper.  I use my leg to block the hoof in the sling long enough to lean toward the hind quarters to take the shot. On Youtube the inventor shows how to block the front hood in the sling around minute 8 in this video, with the explanation starting about minute 7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuD9Km9q0pc  More here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maQ80scsnC0
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Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator

Diamond's CH at ch.ECIRHorse.org

Cayuse and Diamond Old Case Histories pre-2023               
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

Hi I just wanted to share I did a bit more work on Vinnies trim based on all the good feedback I have received here.  I went as far as I was comfortable 🙄.. He did great the entire trim, stood like a champion even while I used my new pink hoofstand. :)   I have  posted before and afters from today.  I taped the clogs back on with a thin later of shocktec.padding and he seems to be pretty good.  He still has little trepidation walking so I know I haven't quite hit the nail in the head yet.  https://youtube.com/shorts/TFGfTokuDQk?feature=share

I really have no clue what I am doing either, so it makes me a little worried not having a mentor alongside me.. But I am doing my best. :) please let me know what you think and if I am close to the mark?

If I wanted to get mark ups in the future, I it best to get new rads to correspond to.the hoof photos that are done for the markups?

Thanks again for everything!!!
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Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

What are the downfall effects of having pretty much a soaked diet with no dry forage? Since I’ve started him on the drained and rinsed beet pulp and the soaked snd drained hay, he drinks very little water. He still gets added salt 2 x a day snd still very little water is drank.
I am still confused by the ESC and WSC snd now the starch seems to be the worse culprit if all? All nutritionist and vets I have talked to still claim the WSC and starch …..so I guess I need further education /explanation to why ECIR is the only source that I have found that focuses on ESC. I bale my own hay from the pasture that I don’t feed my horses because I was always concerned about over eating and founder . I planted a product called “pasture perfect” for horses and rather than mow it as lawn decided to harvest it and not be dependent on others ….because hay growers around here do not test their hay , I am the only that I know of that even has a remotely understanding of all of this stuff. I am confused, dropped a ton of money and just sick of what has happened to this back yard pony . He has gotten better just not really good and today I built him a small lot so that he can be outside . He s only been outside of his stall about 6 times since Christmas …he is feeling better.
It appears the more I read , including articles from Penn State, Michigan State, etc etc and even the responses here, the more I am confused. Right now he get 1/4 lb beet pulp , 1000 ie vit E and 1 Tblsp salt and 3 1/2 # wet soaked drained hay in net. At night , 1/4 c equishine balancer, 1 tbsp salt, 1/3 c stabilized flax, 1/4 # beet pulp, snd 31/2# soaked hay. This morning it was 15 degrees in my barn, I felt terrible giving him cold wet, ice covered hay. He s also on 2000 mg gabapentin 2 x day. He does finish the hay before his next feeding …I don’t know what to do about that. Is my hay numbers that bad??
It’s very frustrating .
Sandy


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Sandy olds WI 2023

Nancy , here is a message from Dr. Kellon, which may help.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/282282?p=%2C%2C%2C20%2C0%2C0%2C0%3A%3ACreated%2C%2CIron++ksu%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C93298458

And this from our Files.....

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Iron,%20Iron%20Testing,%20Iron%20Overload/KSU%20Iron%20Submission%20Information.pdf


Lorna in Eastern Ontario
2002

My vet wants to use Cornell for this iron level test he has agreed to run.  I told him I heard KSU was the lab to send to (which is closer to us so I would think overnight freight is more reasonable) was the lab to use.  Please help me convince him to use KSU.
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Nancy O, Elbert County, CO, 2022

Any precautions on sedation for a horse with high insulin?  I started metformin again on 3/13, dental work is scheduled for 4/15.  I have a blood draw scheduled for 4/7 so I should know where he is at before the sedation.
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Nancy O, Elbert County, CO, 2022

Prior to my mare Prize's IR diagnosis, we had purchased a property planning to live there and have a small summer pasture for our horses in SW Colorado. About 2 acres could be planted with grass and another left as dry lot. Will Prize ever be able to be on a pasture again? She was born and raised on one in Montana until she was 2 yrs. old. We also boarded her on one in Colorado the next summer that was over 300 acres with very little grass due to a drought. She was the only one who seemed to thrive on it. Our current situation is that I am still soaking her hay and feeding minerals I have been using until my hay test comes back. I sent it in a week ago to the lab you most recommend in NY. She is looking better physically, and has not been lame at all even when diagnosed with IR. Thank you so much for all the help this group has provided!
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Sara Goodnick Arizona, 2016 chttps://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=49

Thank you for your reply. Good to know about the niacin.  As of Friday, he is eating 28 lbs of grass hay,  6.3 per cent s/s.  with  2lbs of TBC split between am and pm as a carrier for supplements.  I started the invokana again on Friday,  and moved him into my indoor sand arena.  He has been there 24/7.  He is in cloud boots. He wont eat beet pulp anymore.  What can I give him to lower his liver enzymes?   He gets 15 grams Alcar along with the usual supplements.   I know he should have free choice but that is a little difficult at the moment.  During the day I am giving hay at 7 11 and 3.  3lbs at a time and the balance (17) at 7pm.   At present he is still lying down alot.  As always, I appreciate your time and advice.   And yes, I did remember about the anti inflammatory drugs.  My vet wanted him on banamine but I am giving him devils claw instead.    Thanks.
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Lecia Flyte and Flame
Alberta, Canada

Hi Judy

Just guessing that you are looking at her public view CH and you need to go Rosa's HOOF section -- the work area where you edit/add to that section. It will say hoof-issues in your URL. If you go through My Equines tab, see Edit/Add and Please Choose in the far right.

Hover your clicker over the window that says Radiographs not uploaded yet. You'll see it changes to Click Here to Upload. ONce you click, you'll go to D&I where you can upload your jpgs.

You are almost there. Hang in.
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Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President 2023-2024

Skip and Sonny New Site CH links:
Skip:  https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=1
Sonny:  https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=4

Beau groups.io CH links:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Beau

ECIR Group NEW Case History site is now open Bookmark and save this link somewhere on your device(s). https://ch.ecirhorse.org/ 
HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993

I bring mine in the house, to keep it at room temperature 
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Alicia Holicky in MN  2022

Hi Judy,
It appears that you are using the original CH site so you would go to the link to your photo album in your signature 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=284031

and click on “Add Photos”.  Is that what you’ve done?
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