Date   

Re: Equine Fusion Recovery Boots

Shera Felde
 

No, I haven't Martha. The original photos I took were in the first few months of this laminitis odyssey. I have more recent x-rays and she's getting more next week. I have posted x-rays before but no comments from anyone. Do I ask Lavinia to check my folder of photos?

Thanks for the suggestion. I can't believe we're back in pain mode after such a nice upswing...
--
Shera Felde, Central Oregon, 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Story%20and%20Shera
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253720


Re: is free choice hay dangerous

Debby Sharbaugh <debby.sharbaugh@...>
 

Yep.  I have three, plus one manual feed means I can make sure she has hay every 4 hours.  I'll add a pic to my album.  Don't see a way to insert here.
--

-Debby

 

November 2017, Muckleford South, Victoria, Australia

 

Chicory Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Debby%20and%20Chicory

 

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10826


Re: Riosa Free Choice Hay and Crest

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I thought I would share what we are doing and the changes I noticed. When Vinnie got home from the hospital he was on 18lb hay 4 lb odtbx cubes, 2lb lmf low carb complete.

When Dr Kellon send out the note about the free choice hay, I added two hay bags of a mix of two hays at about 2lb a piece. So that increased his hay to 22lb hay, 4lb odtbc cubes and 2lb lmf low carb complete  Vinnie was staying between 908 and 923lb. I wanted him at about 950lb on so this week I added 1 cup dry weight of RSR beet pulp 2 times per day. This is probably about 1lb total for the day. Bringing his full rations to about 30lb food which is about 3.3% of his current body weight. 

Today I noticed that he left a little more hay in the hay bags so I backed off 2lb of hay from the total today to see how that works.

Body wise,today he looked the best he has looked since he came home from the hospital. He is rounding the edges a little and looks less sinewy. He doesn't have much of a crest. 

We pulled blood again Monday waiting in insulin, but triglycerides remained at 60 with is top of normal which is awesome!.


--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Hay testing

 

Some local agricultural extension offices have hay probes that they lend out. That's worth a try.

 I initially thought the same and bought a manual probe. That was bust. There's no way could I push that thing into the short end of western bales. Maybe you can find a seller that supplies tested hay.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Estrella Alfalfa Pellets

 

Lindsay, you could try contacting them with those questions yourself.  The hay is grown in AZ so I suspect it is irrigated.  We don’t irrigate in Vermont so I don’t have a lot of experience with it but if they irrigate they probably also fertilize and I’m not sure how this affects the hay nutritionally.  I did a search of the messages on ‘irrigate’ but that brings up a lot of posts that weren’t relevant.  You could try yourself maybe looking for ‘irrigate+hay’.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Estrella Alfalfa Pellets

 
Edited

Hi, Lindsay.
If you line up the Guaranteed Analysis of the Timothy Balance Cubes next to the description of Estella Alfalfa Hay Pellets, it's clear diet Audi's diet using Estella Alfalfa Hay Pellets won't be balanced if it is balanced now using ODTBC.

Here's how I know.
1. There's no magnesium listed in Estella. Maybe it's in there, but the amount is unknown. 
2. Maximum calcium in Estella is twice as high as ODTBC, which is why we need to be concerned about balancing it with appropriate proportions of phosphorus and magnesium.
3. The amounts of copper and zinc are half of the ODTBC. Edited to add: this may or may not be significant because we have no idea of the iron content of Estella Alfalfa Hay Pellets.
4. An overriding concern is that the "description" isn't a guaranteed analysis. I don't have the bag to check, but it's quite possible the cubes vary beyond the description. That's not a far-fetched possibility, as the other hay pellets manufactured by Estella show a similar "descriptions" with just slightly less protein. 

High quality hay pellets can be part of a balanced diet. That requires purchasing a single mill run in quantity, analyzing and then balancing the entire diet with minerals. Iron varies but can be very high. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Hay testing

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Anette,

If you are able/willing to open 20 bales(recommended),and grab a handful from the centre,that should work,unless I'm missing a detail.
If it were me,I would chop/cut the samples up a bit,since a hay corer would have done that.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Hay testing

Anette
 

Is it absolutely vital to take hay samples with a hay probe? I really can't justify spending $180+ on something if I can do it by hand. I have no problem breaking open bales to get samples from the center.
--
Anette P and Jaywalker
Boomer, NC
Sep.9 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anette%20and%20Jaywalker


Re: Estrella Alfalfa Pellets

lindsaykrauland@...
 

Yes, your concerns are some of the things I noticed as well, Martha.  And judging by previous posts (which were from an ‘07-‘08 time frame), Lakin is not forthcoming with additional info, or at least they weren’t then.

Regarding the molasses, I noticed on the company’s page that they indicate the pellet is made with mollasses, although, as you said, it’s not in the ingredients list.  How is that?  Are there essentially just no standards for how horse feed is characterized?  Or does an ingredient not need to be listed if it’s less than X%?  That threw me for a loop, and I was hoping that maybe the description was outdated.  Probably too good to be true, though.  :/
 
--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: Riosa Free Choice Hay and Crest

hdavis
 

Thanks Cass!  We may be slightly under 4% as she leaves hay in the nets but I can’t weigh it after as I wet it down to reduce as much dust as possible with her spring allergy issues; so the dampened hay would skew my weights.  But think maybe I will reduce the hay I feed and try to get a better idea of % of BW consumed. But I do know she is eating a lot more than before.  Her crest is soft even if slightly enlarged so that is a good sign.

Good to hear feedback from you as nice to hear what others are experiencing with this feeding protocol who are on Invokana.  
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Slightly elevated liver enzymes in Gavi and cloud /pony

Tara Smith
 

HI ,vet was here yesterday to update Gavis kidney panel for ivonkana and blood chemistry and metabolic  panel with tryglicerides to be checked..Most sent out to Cornell chemistry came back ok but liver enzymes were slightly elevevated in Gavi and cloud my mini pony also cushings positive .CBC, metabolic panels to follow along with Gavis stim and tryglicerides..any insight on what would cause slightly elevated liver enzymes on chemistry tests.Cloud is not on ivonkana but both are on pracend .
--
Tara and Gavilon
Mass.  Nov 2017
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tara%20and%20Gavilon
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=11449


Re: Estrella Alfalfa Pellets

 

Lindsay, I’m hoping someone will come along with a better eye for balanced feeds than I have.  I did note that they add cane molasses yet they don’t list it in the ingredients.  They don’t say anything about balancing the alfalfa only that the vitamin/mineral mix they add is suitable for use in the southwest.  Since they’re assuming the diet is totally comprised of the pellets, I will assume that they’re using a blend meant for an average alfalfa hay grown in the SW.  They’ve added Mn but not analyzed for it.  There is no sugar/starch analysis.  Those are just things I noticed but if it’s a smaller portion of his diet and his hay is balanced, maybe it will work.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Riosa Free Choice Hay and Crest

 

Not Dr Kellon, but my experience with Cayuse is that free choice hay is and eating excessive quantities got old after a while, tho we are no where near 4% of BW! Cayuse is not in work and is older than Riosa, so that may be the major difference. After a week or so, I have seen a decrease in consumption, with hay left left in nets and other feed (like supplements or BP) ignored. I cut back a few hours before supplement feeding time. I haven't seen a larger crest (I think it's a bit smaller, actually), but noticed hay belly. So far FORCO hasn't made a difference, so I'll switch over to Uckele Absorb-All to see if it helps.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Estrella Alfalfa Pellets

 

My apologies!  I did not read through carefully - just saw that they were alfalfa pellets when I opened the link.  I’ll give it another try.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Riosa Free Choice Hay and Crest

hdavis
 

Hello,

Riosa is on free choice hay full time now and is consuming about 4% of her body weight or just a bit below at this point. She is being exercised about 5 days a week at this point as well. She seems to have a slightly larger crest perhaps but otherwise is going well.

Should I be concerned about the crest and cutting back hay or do I proceed until next bloods?  She has been on free choice for approx a week.

Advice Dr. Kellon or others with horses on Invokana and free choice hay.
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Re: Estrella Alfalfa Pellets

lindsaykrauland@...
 

Hi Martha, 

Thanks for the info.  Were you able to scroll down that product page and check out the nutritional info?  These are actually a fortified alfalfa cube.  I’m still shaky on the needed amounts and ratios for minerals (signed up for NRC+ next month!), but these look OK to me at first glance.  

I do grab timothy or alfalfa/timothy cubes when I can’t get ODTBC, but if these are a decently balanced & safe alternative, it would be lovely!  As for ordering the OD by the pallet, storage becomes an issue.  I have discussed splitting a pallet with friends but haven’t tried it yet.

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: Estrella Alfalfa Pellets

 

Lindsay, I order the cubes by the pallet.  You might even be able to get a discount that way although I don’t.  And I order more about half way through the pallet.  

If Audi is not sensitive to alfalfa, you can purchase timothy alfalfa cubes, which would still need to be balanced and are probably lower in s/s than pure timothy cubes but would have a similar mouth feel.  Someone else may have a different opinion on the switch.  I have used alfalfa pellets, mixed in with other feed, many years ago, before I had any idea that supplementing a horse’s diet meant something other than adding a scoop of the most popular equine vitamin.  
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Estrella Alfalfa Pellets

lindsaykrauland@...
 

I see some mention of this brand in years-old threads but nothing current.  Aside from the possible sensitivity to alfalfa, do these look OK?  I’m having a huge headache with the feed store and my standing order of ODTBC. Sometimes it comes in and sometimes it doesn’t, and it’s very hard to maintain my horses on a consistent diet as a result.  Meanwhile, a huge pallet of these is sitting there, and it’s $12 less per bag.   Could I use these in place of all or part of Audi’s ODTBC?

http://warrensfeed.mybigcommerce.com/estrella-50-lbs-bag-alfalfa-hay-pellet/

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: test results

 

Hi Karen,

Welcome to the ECIR group! 

I will try to answer your question about test results and then leave you with our formal group welcome to read through.  There you will find lots of information about your pony’s health and how to better manage her to aid in her recovery and protect her going forward.

The insulin results indicate that she is IR (insulin resistant) or, more correctly, has EMS (equine metabolic syndrome) of which insulin resistance is a symptom.

The endogenous ACTH result being below reference range might suggest she is better than good in that regard but more likely it indicates there has been some degradation of the sample between blood draw and analysis.  The ACTH samples are very labile and need to be treated according to protocol.  The times we see this are when the lab testing the insulin has to send the samples on to another lab to analyze ACTH.  Something to consider.  Your pony is at an age where PPID may be a factor.  If left untreated, PPID can contribute to elevated insulin levels.

Once you post a case history for us to review, we can offer some management suggestions to help get the insulin value down to a safer level.

Here you go with the reading material!

 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


test results

Karen Dallimore
 

I'm new here so forgive me if this topic has been covered. I got test results back for my 22 year old pony in February and I wasn't sure what they mean?

Endogenous ACTH (Baseline)  5.6 pmol/L Reference range 6.6 - 11 considered equivocal for PPID during winter

Insulin   667 (HIGH) 0-301 reference range

Glucose 5.2 pmol/L Adult Reference Range 3.8-6.7

She foundered quite badly and is still recovering. How do I refer to her condition so that I can look up more research? 

Thanks.

--
Karen D. from Ontario, Canada April 2021