Would someone be able to answer the question about contraindications for IR? Od there see none known that is sufficient.

Thx Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
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Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
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Here is the article I was referring to:

https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2019/04/19/oral-magnesium-boron-headshaking-horses/
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
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Hi, Nancy.
I know little about health benefits of supplementing boron, having invested in removing boron from drinking water to avoid its known health risks described in detail by WHO. NRC 6th revised edition (not current but the one I have)  says "Based on the current status of knowledge, the natural occurrence is sufficient.... The supplementation of these elements [boron, nickel and vanadium] is not based on scientifically elaborated, valid data and has the potential to be dangerous to horses." 

I'm glad you don't use borax. There are food-grade supplements like boron citrate. The little reading I've done suggests that boron in supplements was quickly excreted in urine in amounts close to the amounts supplemented. https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Boron-HealthProfessional/  

Here's the UC Davis article about a very small group of horses, focusing primarily on increasing magnesium supplementation to help with trigeminal head-shaking. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jvim.15499  

Are you thinking Vinnie is head-shaking? A video would be very helpful. 
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Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
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Sorry for the typos the I and O on my phone are strangely swapping today lol
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

Wondering regardless if the source of there are mineral balancing considerations or contraindications for IR. 

I understand the sourcing question but, it was something discussed with my vet over 2 yrd ago and am not concerned. On fact I have read articles about its use.  Ideally if I could find a granule form with the same efficacy I would use it. Most supps that contain Boron have other minerals that I don't want to add. I have investigated many.

Thanks Nancy
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Summer
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Nancy, are you considering reinstating the laundry additive or using boron capsules, etc. manufactured for humans?  I can't answer your question about whether you should add it as a supplement, but I would caution you not to use the 20 mule team borax.  I know they claim it is "pure" but it is not tested, nor equilibrated into amounts to provide exactly how much boron you get if it is ingested. In fact, if it is ingested the manufactures instructions are to seek medical attention immediately.
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Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

Forgot to mention, the 500 ml is split into 6, 30 ml servings.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Summer
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So great to hear, Nancy!  What a relief you must feel.  Just don't let down your guard.  I know you know that!?!
--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 

I think I've done it. Fingers crossed. In another "Reply", my old photos came up so I'm not sure, but we'll see. 
thanks, Kelly
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April 2016

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Thank you so much  for your response. I may try to increase the prascend. This is the first year that her coat has not shed. I don't mind clipping her, but want to do everything I can to slow the progression of PPID.  I will speak with the vet about the boney changes and navicular too. We have not discussed either.  I'm going to try to take some new pictures tonight too.
Again, thank you.
--
Kelly & Micah, Clayton NC

April 2016

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20%20Micah 

Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1829  .

 

          

Oh,thanks,Kirsten.

So sample needs to  be spun sometime within 4 hours of being pulled . That's a relief.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Thanks for catching that, Lorna.  I could have sworn I recently saw a recommendation to keep it to 2 hrs before spinning, but of course I can't find it now.  This post from Jaini backs up what you are saying with the 4hrs:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/174869


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Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
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Hey all, I had been using Boron for arthritis
(dissolving 1 tbsp mule team borax in 500ml of hot water) but stopped a while back. I do think this was helping with Vinnie's arthritis and wanted to add it back. 

I remember UCD published a study in 2019 or 2020 showing that Boron and magnesium supplementation helps with head shaking syndrome.

Is there anything I need to consider IR wise or mineral balancing wise if I add Boron back to my supplements?

Thanks Nancy 

--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Summer
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Hi Larry,

Thanks for the additional observations and photos.

Elevating the heels mechanically doesn't really help the situation, as it raises the back of the foot but continues to crush the heels forward, without actually guiding the foot back under the horse. QH tend to have palmer/plantar angles on the lower end of the "average range" as their norm, which also predisposes them to the foot getting driven forward when the toes aren't kept meticulously short and the heels aren't maintained back underneath the leg. Once the foot has been squished out ahead, with the heel bulbs and digital cushion squished out behind, it takes a targeted effort to realign everything back where it belongs. My preference is to go barefoot, using padded boots if needed to help the process along. This allows for frequent, small changes to be done that encourage the entire apparatus to stand up straighter, in a more physiologically correct manner. The incremental changes also allow his entire body to adapt to the changes being made, as his muscles, tendons, ligaments will all be working differently than they are accustomed to.

In the photos, I can see some mild wall flaring, along with the underrun heels and longer toes. The overall impression is much better than the vast majority of the feet we see, so kudos to you for keeping the trim from being a train wreck. I also give you a lot of credit for experimenting with different things and noticing what does/ doesn't work, as well as how he compensates for these things.

My suggestions would be to work on getting the trim itself as physiologically tight as possible, using padded boots during the process if needed for comfort. This would include shortening the toes and unloading the walls in the heels so they'll stand more upright while maintaining the current vertical heel height.

If this makes sense to you, let me know and I can do a full set of mark-ups to help guide the trims once you can provide a full set of hoof photos (taken at ground level, please):

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

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Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
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On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:29 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:

Hopefully your vet is familiar with handling the blood: chilled/on ice until it can be spun within 2 hours

Hi Kirsten,

Can you clarify this ,for those with timing issues? Cornell requires this be done within 4 hours.
Does Guelph require only 2 ? I couldn't find it on their site, and  I should be clear on this for future testing.

Thanks.
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Well done,Larry.
Apparently I struggle with this,too,since I gave you an incorrect link for your CH(although it worked for me,Sigh).

Sorry.

He's a handsome boy.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Nancy,  thank you this really helps!
--
Larry
June 2021, Bennet, Nebraska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Larry%20and%20Cisco

Lorna, I thinkI have these changes updated.  I struggle with this.
--
Larry
June 2021, Bennet, Nebraska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Larry%20and%20Cisco

Hi Naomi,

The University of Guelph is the lab we recommend in Canada.  They have a PPID package that includes ACTH, insulin and glucose.  They also have an EMS Package that adds on leptin, which is out-sourced to Cornell, and T4 -- it is much more expensive and we don't generally recommend leptin anymore, so I request the PPID package personally.  I wouldn't be as concerned about doing the thyroid hormones.  They are usually a bit low in EMS and PPID horses as a secondary effect of their EMS/PPID.  Getting their primary condition under control should resolve the low thyroid hormones.  Then, if you still have concerns, you can have them tested.

Hopefully your vet is familiar with handling the blood: chilled/on ice until it can be spun within 2 hours, then frozen and shipped by overnight courier with ice packs.  In a rural area it can be difficult to ship overnight, so making sure the sample is frozen is critical.  Also best to send it out on a Monday so it can be received by the lab during the week and not sit over the weekend. 

Butterscotch's glucose was above the lab range, and is actually at diabetic levels.  I would definitely have it retested with insulin to confirm it before worrying too much, it could be due to inappropriate diet.  My horse first tested almost within the diabetic range (close enough that he appeared to be effectively diabetic), but after I got his insulin and EMS better controlled by diet his glucose has been normal.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
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