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Re: EMERGENCY

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


Re: EMERGENCY

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Anne,

Another member was kind enough to forward to me October 30 radiographs and some LF hoof photos you had posted on FB.

You need a hands-on hoof consultation. I would take Bonnie's suggestion and if you can't actually take her there at least give them a call and get a recommendation for consultation on the photos, films and venograms. The foot is not trimmed according to clog instructions. There is considerable sinking but little to no bony rotation. A proper realigning trim could change perfusion to the foot but this is something that can't done from a distance.

We can help you with diet and supplements but the trim help  needs to be in person.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Update on Jiaogulan and Mithrandir's progress

HL's Mom
 

Hi all-

I switched MIthrandir onto Jiaogulan about a month ago after going through a bottle of APF(which didn't last a month!). She has improved tremendously. She seems happier in herself, has a lot more energy and is feeling better. I don't have to work as hard to get impulsion, she seems more focused and more willing to work. She's also more responsive to myu aids- bending, lateral work,etc. I'm getting an ACTH retest done this week- it's been 3 years- so I'll be curious to see what her numbers are.

Have a good holiday season, and hope everyone's horses find improvement.

Diann  in VA 2020


Re: Efficacy of Vitamin E gel caps

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Pat,

Emcelle is fed at a daily rate of 0.2 mL to 0.6 mL per 100 lb of body weight which is 2 - 6ml (or cc) which isn't very much at all.  (1 pump = 4ml) As far as ingredients it's d-alpha-tocopheol, a proprietary emulsion, water and n-propyl alcohol.  Yes, it's more than a tsp, but it's certainly not a huge amount of oil that will cause an issue.



Invokana Precaution

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Until we have more information, I would not use Invokana with Tylenol/acetaminophen since they are both metabolized by the same liver UGT enzyme systems.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Efficacy of Vitamin E gel caps

Amadadelsol@...
 

I believe Emcelle is a good product but what was concerning me was the seemingly large full pump you would need to use. I know that people prefer that it's natural d- vs the dl-, but in the back of my mind I remember that we need to limit the fat for our ECIR horses. I already give flax which I would think is adding fat so I'm not sure a big pump of oil would be a good thing. I like that the teaspoon of Uckele Liquid E is small and has less chance of putting her off her food (Stabul1). I hope it's working as well as the natural d- Emcelle supplement though. 
--
Pat and Frigga
Monkton, VT
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252741  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Frigga


Re: Invokana side effects - how common are they?

Nancy Kitchen
 

Hi Alicia
I have permission from my vet to post his name and he is in the ECIR vet list - Bart Harrison works out of Middleboro Animal Clinic in Middleboro MA.  He's been so great to work with, always open to any conversation regarding laminitis and treatments.  I'm sure he would be happy to speak with your vet regarding the Invokana and any other treatments.  My horse has had no ill effects from the Invokana and I can say it literally saved his life.  He has been with me almost three years and this is the first winter that I have not had to blanket him or wrap his legs and feet.  He is able to maintain his own body temp this year... he's on 300 mg Invokana and 1/2 tab Prascend.  Tho he tests normal on the ACTH is is better on the Prascend.  My vet says we treat the horse not the test results, we use them as a guide.   He is a really awesome vet and we are lucky to have him....  All the best and ps I LOVE you podcast... the one with Dr Debra Taylor is my most favorite one... so informative.  Thank you for doing those.  Look forward to meeting you one day.
--
Nancy K
Smoke and Tucky
November 2018, Southeast, MA

Smoke Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Smoke
Smoke Photo Album:    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94122
Tucky Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Tuck 
Tucky Photo Album:


Re: RSR beet pulp

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Alicia,

I feel like this has been answered somewhere along the way but searching as yet hasn't provided me a ready answer for you.  I do know that Dr. Kellon was recently discussing feeding oats and beet pulp with Daisy (within an hour after exercise) and that discussion may be helpful: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/77766954#256702.  You can also refer to this doc in our files:




Re: EMERGENCY

 

Hello Anne,
Have you considered taking your horse to MSU? Not sure if they would allow you to dictate/provide his diet while there? There is a farrier that has done difficult  laminitis cases for MSU. I don't know her name but met her at an Ada Hammer trimming clinic in MI. 

I also wanted to send you a link to a business that sells every kind of hoof pad material. https://www.happyhoofpads.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=60
I bought pad material from this vendor when my past horse developed laminitis. His boot came with wedge pads with a frog support but eventually I found that he was actually more comfortable in a thick NON WEDGE pad. The sellers pads are low priced. You do have to cut them to fit your horse's boots, not hard to do. 
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: Invokana side effects - how common are they?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Metformin is clearly not working. Even if the cold is playing a role, keeping him warm won't counteract insulin that high. Is he still on Tylenol? Anything else for pain?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Safe Starch vs Timothy Balance Cubes?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The added fat (soybean oil) in TCSS has caused problems in some horses. It only takes about 6.6 pounds to get up to the amount of soybean oil that has been shown to worsen insulin.

Most stores are happy to stock something if you make it a standing order and guarantee you will pick it up and purchase it.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Invokana side effects - how common are they?

Jennifer Murphy
 

Oh my gosh, that is perfect (and I admit I had to laugh, because who comes up with this stuff?)! 

So for the last 12 days Flea has been very, very crippled up; it's awful to see.  He's been eating his mash for the most part, so he's getting probably 80-90% of his metformin into him daily.  I believe this isn't an insulin spike, but severe cold induced pain/winter laminitis.  He's in cotton socks well powdered, wool blend socks, Equine Fusion boots with dampening pads, and shearling lined "leggings".  He's getting jiaogulan 2x daily with his minerals/meds/supplements.  I have a heat lamp in his stall, but I don't lock him in as historically he's always been better if he can move around. I know it's been asked before, but I've never seen a real answer to this question - do equines on Invokana still succumb to the effects of winter laminitis?  If I put him on Invokana and he still has these episodes, I'm afraid I won't recognize if the medication is working or not. 

--
Jennifer in NH
2020

CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea

Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Re: Invokana side effects - how common are they?

riggslippert@...
 

Hi Jennifer,

I hope you are making progress on getting your horse on Invokana.  My horse has improved significantly since being started in mid October.  I board him and he has become very picky with his meals, so I knew there was no way metformin would be a viable option.  As far as obtaining urine samples, I found this on Amazon and it has been very helpful to obtain a sample from a distance and without getting hands wet :)

https://www.amazon.com/Cabachoc-Ill-Catch-U-Urine-Collection-Horses/dp/B07SGPN9QJ/ref=sr_1_18?crid=BEM6H9LYKSOI&dchild=1&keywords=urine+catcher+for+dogs&qid=1608548291&sprefix=urine+cat%2Caps%2C185&sr=8-18

Good luck!
--
Aunna
October 2018
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
Cadet Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet
Ruger Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger

Cadet Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102




Re: Updating CH

Cindy Q
 

Hi Marsha

If you have an Android tablet, they usually work the same way as Maxine described below. When you download the CH to your tablet, it should go into a default download folder. You can find this with your tablet's default file manager app. From there you can open the file like a file on your desktop if you have the appropriate software and edit it, save it back in the same place. Upload you will need to go to that default folder to select it. I do agree it's much easier on a desktop!

--
Cindy and Glow - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response





Re: Invokana side effects - how common are they?

Alicia Harlov
 

Hi Nancy! 

Which vet has been really on board with Invokana in MA? Maybe I can have them chat with my vets. 
--
-Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA 
PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast


RSR beet pulp

Alicia Harlov
 

For horses that need extra weight gain, but are metabolic, I have always recommended RSR beet pulp. In the files I noticed that this dramatically lowers the digestible energy. Does that mean they won't benefit from the beet pulp for added weight? Assuming the horse is a hard keeper but otherwise managed? 
--
-Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA 
PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast
South Hamilton, MA, member since 2017


Re: Updating CH

Buzz
 

Thank you so much Maxine! I think the problem is my tablet. Plan to get a computer which should help! Your instruction was great, problem is on this end. The PDF file is very difficult to locate once it is saved and I cant even put it on the desktop. I'll keep  working on it!
--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Relevante trim mark-ups

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lynn,

I've added the latest mark-ups to Relevante's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=36909&p=Created,,,50,2,0,0

Thanks for doing another round of radiographs to keep tabs on the hind feet. The rads show that although things are much improved from where they started, they aren't quite there yet. Because his heels still are underrun, you need to keep guarding the precious amount of vertical heel height that 's developed to keep the positive changes made to the HPA in place. Toes can come back a tad more as well as getting a much more aggressive roll on them. This is true for all four but esp. needed for the hinds. Fronts are looking pretty good now so it's more about tweaking things rather than making huge changes to them. Small amounts of wall flaring that is growing out is still evident so just continue to work on that until it is finally gone.

LH lateral composite: On the rad, the pink line shows how the bony column should align. It continues past the tip of the coffin bone, to end where the toe should end and at the depth you'd like to see for the sole. The purple line shows how the bony column actually aligns.Note that it still dips back and away from the pink line but this is a much smaller deviation that you started with, so still making huge progress. There is actually more sole depth than there appears to be but unfortunately, the rads were shot from somewhat below the foot, pointing slightly upward and thru the block so the view is a bit distorted, making it appear as if the soles are very thin when they are not. The blue area is where the toe needs to be backed and rolled more. Red line denotes the need to add more height to the back half of the foot relative to the front half.
On the photo, the blue area corresponds to the blue on the radiograph = backing the toe as well as adding a good mustang roll to it.

LH dorsal: Green line highlights the medial wall flare in the bottom 1/3 of the hoof. Bring that inward to align with angle from above.

LH sole: Blue hashed areas are where the walls need to be be brought inward and rolled. At the toe, it's where to both bring the horizontal length back and roll it. From the purple line forward, lower the front half of the foot slightly in addition to bringing it back and rolling the toe. Don't shave the sole itself, just lower the walls to sole height. Yellow hashes along the leading edge of the bar are where the flap of overgrown bar is ready to be removed. Orange circles are where to leave the high point for the heel buttresses. Bevel the outer wall away and allow the heel-bar junction to become the new buttress. This will preserve the vertical height while helping the heels to relax down so they start moving back.

RH lateral composite: Same discussion and goals as for the LH.

RH dorsal: Again, green line shows where the remaining wall flare is. Bring it inward to align with the angle of the healthier growth above it.

RH sole: Same idea as the LH. More of the bars seem to be ready to let go, so they can be encouraged to do so. It is likely both the medial and lateral are in the same situation, although I only marked the lateral one. Again, lower the foot in the front half - from the purple line forward - slightly but don't shave the sole itself.

LF lateral: Blue area is where to back and then roll the toes to get them back a tad more plus get an easier breakover in place.

LF sole: Blue hashed areas around the entire perimeter can be rolled, with the most aggressive roll at the toe after it is brought back a bit more. Yellow hashes are the leading edges of the bars and sole sole that appears to be letting loose around the tip of the frog. Lightly remove what is ready to go but be careful not to get too aggressive with this. Leave the rest of the sole alone. Orange circles are where to set up the heel buttresses to maintain the current heel height while encouraging the heels to stand up straighter.

RF lateral: Same discussion as the LF. Double check the lateral heel height as it appears to be slightly taller.

RF sole: Apply the same principles as on the LF.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Jherb for Vinnie, was Lavinia is there ever a right time for corrective shoes?

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi Cass, yes his gums are pink after deed, infact occasionally when I try to skip a dose of banamine I will add a little extra to Vinnie's bucket.

At this point we don't seem to think this is an abcess. We removed hoof wall from the lateral side in that position to remove some white line and gunk.  I am am getting new rads tomorrow.  He is very sore on the medial side where there is bone loss of the P3 so we are trying to figure out a solution that works. Right now I have him in a boot with a pad cut out in the spot that creates the most discomfort. He was pretty sore today..I am also battling the side effects of the old hay that had alf and possibly uncontrolled PPID so we started metformin today and increases his dose of prascend to 
0.75 two days ago.  He was really sore this morning in both feet..looked mildly laminitic hence starting metformin.  Ugh.. 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Pergolide/Prascend Dose

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Tamara,

Some horses need an increase in dosage during the seasonal rise but we are past that now.  Acting sluggish could be a sign of the pergolide veil or a sign he needs a higher dose.  The only way to tell for sure is to test and see what his ACTH level is.  You can do that after 3 weeks on a specific dose.



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