Date   

Re: Blood re-test

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Michelle,

Can you post the lasted bloodwork in your Case History?  A decrease in adiponectin might suggest her insulin has gone up again, but did you test insulin and glucose the second time around, too?  Insulin is the trigger for laminitis, so that must be checked with all blood pulls to monitor her metabolic condition.

In looking at her Feb results, her insulin was at a nice safe level for a horse with EMS so I'm surprised you described her as footy at that time.  Was she fasted for that blood pull, or was it done while on hay?  (If fasted, the result will be artificially low, so that could partially explain footiness.)  Elevated insulin is what causes laminitis and since it appears that this was well-controlled when the blood was pulled, moving her off the grass probably helped immensely and might have caused an immediate response in her circulating insulin levels; however, any lingering damage in the hoof from laminitis takes longer to resolve and could explain being footy for a more extended time, especially if her trim needs corrections.  I'm assuming by the description of exercise she is getting that she is sound now, though, so I think if you keep doing what you are doing you should be able to avoid laminitis this year.  Keeping her moving every day, even at a low intensity, will help improve insulin sensitivity.  If she is not sound, be very careful with her exercise...her hooves need to be healthy before 'forced' exercise.

Metformin at such a low dose may not be effective.  Have to test insulin to know if its helping.

As far as her weight, generally for EMS horses we like to keep them between a BCS of 4-5 / 9.  You should easily be able to feel the ribs, and see them in certain lights or when she is turning/bending or exercising.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Aragon's hoofs

Myriam Desrosiers
 

Hi! I've put  a new picture of Aragon's Right front foot from this morning... I kind of worry how it looks, like the wall is detaching from the hoof!? There's cracks and i had a hard time cleaning the wood chips between  the white line and the hoof.. Could it be because it's too dry? 
I don't have his right foot radios. The vet sent me twice the left foot. 
Thank you
--
MyriamD, Qc, Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Myriam%20and%20Aragon

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260540


Re: How long on metformin before retest

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Marsha,

If your vet puts a note on the sample they will give you an actual number.

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Jiagulon -help horse suddenly very sore

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Michele,

The replacement for NSAIDs is Devil's Claw.  We have many members who have had good luck with the Phytoquench pellets with Devil's Claw.  Stopping a NSAID quickly can result in a rebound effect which may be the issue you're seeing or he could be having something else going on and it's just a coincidence that you stopped the Equioxx.




Re: Jiaogulan-when and why

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Kandace,

1 - Jiaogulan can increase the speed of hoof growth so yes, it can help more, but it becomes even more important to have the horse on a regular short trim schedule and have a proper trim in place.
2 - If you read the file, the starting dose is listed as .5 tsp twice a day for an older horse.  If you want to add it to feed you will need to double that amount (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/254107 for reference)
3 - you can start the Jiaogulan now but again, the hoof care needs to be a priority if you add it in. 

Have you increased the dose of Prascend to 2 per day or is she still on 1.5?  Alternating the dose by the day is not going to help you determine which dose is the correct one to keep her ACTH under control.  It looks like you bumped her up to 1.5 on 12/30/20 but then retested 14 days later (not enough time at the 1.5mg dose to see if it was working) and she came back at 65.7.  Then there was another retest 18 days later while she was on alternating doses and the result was questionable.  When did the result of 77 come in?  To get a meaningful test result you really need to pick a dose and stick with it for 21 days prior to testing.  Then you'll know if that dose is correct or if she needs more. 



Jiagulon -help horse suddenly very sore

 

Hello...my 32 year old retired wb with Cushings has been getting 1 daily Equioxx (for arthritis ) with his prascend ...I decided to stop Equioxx and give Uckeles Jiagulon a try ...I gave 1 scoop yesterday , and 1 scoop today and he’s now looking very sore and ouchy with his front feet ...his RF has a pulse and LF seems reactive to the hoof pick when pressing along the outside quarter ...I have others on Jiagulon that haven’t had any issue...is this normal/typical ? I think I remember someone saying it can make them sore initially? 
--
Michele Goldberg
Bernville, Pa 
joined 5/19/2016


Re: Improved weight/hooves, but now hindgut issues, "Science Supplements"

Laura and Ero
 

Dr. K - thank you for responding as well, as I feel we've been balancing his vit/minerals to his hay as best as possible. But the disinterest in the vit/min has been about two weeks. He'll eventually eat the flax plain (it's just a lot of dry powder), so wondering what else in the feed is off-putting? Even watering the mix is no longer helping. A death in my family has kept me away for a week or so, but this hind-end behavior was happening before that. Perhaps adding psyllium husks would add some texture?

No NSAIDS. His manure volume and texture hasn't really changed and no diarrhea, although no rehab exercise last week (and he's passes manure about 3 times in an hour during 'work'). The touchiness over his SI is still prominent. He did get his teeth floated yesterday due to some sharp points and canines coming in (all but top right have erupted). Rehab work is being done in a halter. Spring shots were split up: West Nile/EWT in the butt, rhino/flu intranasal. He'll get rabies/PHV booster (shot) in two weeks. 

Mixed sand footing for arena work only. His stall is matted with shavings. His drylot is crushed limestone (although it's been wet and snowy here). He's fed in small hole nets and I'm now moving his overnight stall net to the ground so he's not cranking his neck to rip out the soaked hay (he's barefoot). 

Would you recommend a double-dose of Strongid for possible worms? He's not rubbing his tail, but does push back into the wall, on his rear to seemingly relieve some sort of pressure (SI, stifles ... no one has been able to diagnose). I will connect with another vet for a work-up and will consider the Lyme's test to rule out (although rounds of doxy makes me feel I must get a pre-/probiotic). I was already going to have rads completed on feet, hocks as our annual baseline (possibly stifle and back?) It's been 3 months and while his weight and condition have improved, his outward physical issues aren't resolving.


--
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Colgate, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album


Re: How long on metformin before retest

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Marsha,

If your vet contacts Cornell and asks them they can give a specific number for the insulin result.  At this point it would be helpful to know that so you can monitor if you're going in the right direction or not. 

Was Buzzy on Metformin when the insulin was last tested? If he was started on it after that test we recommend testing again after a week on the drug to see if it is having an effect.  You can read more in the files: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/4%20Insulin%20Resistance/Metformin

As far as converting the case history to a PDF - you should be able to either "Save As" or "Print to" a pdf in Word.  If not, you can use an online converter like Zamzar (https://www.zamzar.com/) to do that. 




How long on metformin before retest

Buzz
 

Buzzy is going through abscesses and is certainly painful!! We are soaking and poulticing daily! I got results on insulin, still >200!! I wish they would give an exact number so we could track better. We wasted a month on Insulin Wise and I dont want to waste time with metformin if not helping.Im trying to get his CH put into a pdf to post as I have it updated. Alwayshas been hard for me to convert to pdf. I will keep trying! Thank you for help!
--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258797


Re: Jiaogulan-when and why

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Kandace.  I don't know of any good forums about BP...But, you can look around at your house and farm for water sources- ie rain barrels, melted snow and left over water in water buckets...can be used for soaking the BP.    You can put snow in a heated water bucket and it will melt overnight and that can be your soaking water.   I also add salt to the soaking water. I have found that it displaces the sand  more thoroughly than water alone. And then that last rinse goes much quicker. I have to soak hay as well, so conservation of water is really important for me too. 
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: Dr Kellon Invokana and Lipemia - urgent

Buzz
 


Re: Aservo Equihaler

 

Hi Sherry ..ok that makes sense now ..he really did seem like he was extra pushing the inhaler. I got a bottle of Ventipulmin to have on hand if he gets another bad flare. I’m anxiously awaiting all my bloodwork results.


--
Michele Goldberg
Bernville, Pa
joined 5/19/2016


Re: Improved weight/hooves, but now hindgut issues, "Science Supplements"

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Laura,

Hind gut inflammation doesn't just happen out of nowhere and  there is no primary ulcer disease in the colon like there is in the stomach. Ulceration is a severe change caused by inflammation and unlikely to be present without colic, diarrhea, protein loss with low albumin and an obviously sick horse.

Among the causes of inflammation are (no particular order here) NSAID use, mass emergence of small strongyles, overgrowth of a pathogen in the microbiome. The hallmark of significant hind gut disorder is diarrhea. How is his manure volume and texture?

He may have more than one thing going on. Good appetite for hay and not for concentrates/bucket feed is one of the most reliable signs of gastric ulcers. If he has them, 3 or 4 days of Gastrogard will make an obvious difference and confirm the diagnosis. This wouldn't explain his touchiness though. Many possibilities there, including low grade "gas colic"  from reduced exercise, sand, enterolith, etc. Less exercise can also make horses bored, irritable and "crabby". Agree Lyme is possible (Cornell's panel is the best test). Something else to consider with him is abdominal abscess from the previous Pigeon Fever. Abdominal abscesses grow very slowly and can take many years to cause problems. They often form in the mesentery. a veil of tissue attaching the intestine to the abdominal wall. As the abscess enlarges it causes traction and discomfort. Lipoma is also possible although they usually don't cause problems unless they get wrapped around a loop of bowel.

I would request a complete abdominal work up with rectal exam, abdominal ultrasound, paracentesis. Get a CBC with fibrinogen (shows inflammation) and a chemistry panel to rule out liver or kidney issues. The Science Supplement is a good one although my preference for a prebiotic is psyllium and for probiotic Absorb-All which also improves small intestinal digestion leaving less work for the hind gut.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Aservo Equihaler

 

He is on Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes, Vermont Blend, Nuzu Stabul One Plus, Triple Crown Naturals Golden Ground Flax , & Vitamin e along with tested low sugar Timothy hay.


--
Michele Goldberg
Bernville, Pa
joined 5/19/2016


Re: Aservo Equihaler

 

Hello- I've been using the inhaler version of this steroid - Alvesco, I thought I'd give my 2 cents. 

1) My horse is not high risk for IR/Laminitis, so I haven't had to think about using it in that light. However, I do know that the UC Davis vet that diagnosed my guy with asthma was very excited about the Aservo coming out because Ciclesonide is not supposed to be detected systemically. The blurbs I've read about it online also say this.

2) When I finally was able to get the name of the steroid (before Aservo was available), I realized Ciclesonide is available as an inhaler through Canadian pharmacies. I started at 10 puffs per day (1400lbs horse), and am now down to 5 puffs every 4 days, so one inhaler now lasts for a long time. I alternate every other day with another inhaler, Tilade. You give the puffs with this awesome device, AeroHippus.  It might be possible to use something designed for children that is cheaper. I will increase the dosages in September, as his acute asthma seems to be in October.

Hope this helps someone,
Laura
NRC+ 0310
Santa Rosa, CA


Re: New and unsure

madisonlodge@...
 

Ouch!  I’ve been getting hay from him for years and he only went up to $7 last year, $6 up till then.  I cut about 300 bales off my place but it’s full of trefoil which the horses won’t eat on the ground but scoff it as hay, way too rich for them, I sell it to friends for $5.50.  I used to love all my grass, now it’s become a curse!
--
Heather
Lamppost 24 TB, Cushing’s - Fidget 27 TB, Cushing’s 
Figaro 25 Cleveland Bay non-Cushing’s 
West Gippsland, Victoria, Australia
2021


Re: New and unsure

Maxine McArthur
 

Wow, for $7 per bale, I would stick with your grower too! (For those in the US, we pay $19-21 per small rectangular bale in Canberra)
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Jiaogulan-when and why

Kandace Krause
 

Hello,
okay,  it's not really a new topic, but I read through a file on it and didn't come away with clear answers at all.
1) Laminitis, acute or chronic, this is our first round and "K" has foundered.  Venograms showed good vein / circulation and hoof seems to be growing back now.
Founder diagnosed in Sept. 2020.  Can J Herb help more?
2) No specifics on dosing and increased amount if trying it on feed?  Currently having to dose pergolide to an unhappy spit it out or drool it away horse.  Don't really think it is best interest to add more syringes to routine.  Double it? 1.5 dose? to start and watch gums?
3) will have new blood work done at month end, and last ACTH test and retest very confusing (retest not loaded to CH 77 ish on Cornell units), so IR and ACTH not under "control".  Should I even start J herb now?, or ever.

Also, which forum best to find best and most practical final rinse practise for beet pulp.  Amount of water I am using is unsustainable.
Thanks,

--
Kandace K Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259062


Re: New and unsure

madisonlodge@...
 

Thanks for all your ideas Maxine, it’s really helpful.  I’ve been buying pasture hay from the same local guy for years, it’s lovely hay and I pay $7/bale stacked in my shed. He only cuts it for me now and I buy 200+ each year so still have a shed full of it.  I’m going to get it tested and cross fingers it’s low enough to feed dry. My neighbour has offered access to his bore water which is quite good quality, I can get that tested for mineral content, it might be an option as well.
--
Heather
Lamppost 24 TB, Cushing’s - Fidget 27 TB, Cushing’s 
Figaro 25 Cleveland Bay non-Cushing’s 
West Gippsland, Victoria, Australia
2021


Re: New and unsure

Maxine McArthur
 

What kind of hay are you feeding? I know it's impossible to be sure if it's safe without testing, but I have found Rhodes to be consistently low in ESC+starch. If you can get hold of a bit of that, you might be able to save on some of the soaking water. We faced this issue during the drought in 2018-19. Teff can be more variable wrt carbs, but I have a supplier in Canberra who uses Victorian teff hay that tests low and is some of the cleanest hay I've ever seen. Look for "Neigh Hay" on Facebook, and if you message Charlotte she may be able to put you in touch with her Victorian supplier. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933