Thanks Dr Kellon,

If he was actually hyperthyroid then it could have been aggravating things but on its own, no.

I think he was hyperthyroid as his thyroid values were high the Jan and Feb tests.

Also latest update just now  Fantastic news, Vinnie's triglycerides are down to 527. He was a bit foot sore yday so they gave him low dose of pain meds for for first time in his stay but today he is not sore so this is good news as well. --
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

Just a quick note that the NSC is the same as ESC + starch in a product like this because the ingredients don't contain fructan.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 02:57 PM, Nancy & Vinnie & Summer wrote:

1. Is it possible that the high thyrol supplementation contributed to the hypertriglyceridemia? Thinking out loud about how it could increase calorie use??  If he was actually hyperthyroid then it could have been aggravating things but on its own, no.

2. Is it possible this all began around 2/9 and I mistakenly thought it was ppid contributing to the sore feet when in reality it could have been metabolic hypertriglyceridemia?

Without detailed blood work from then, you'll never know but it's highly unlikely his insulin was high.

3. How long does he need to be off prascend to get a good trh stim.  Contemplating having it run with the insulin panel tomorrow?

Should be 2 to 4 weeks after stopping Prascend.
 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Little movement, especially in winter, could certainly aggravate the negative circulatory effects of high insulin. I would try Jiaogulan first.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Welcome Laura,

We all know you are trying hard. You wouldn't be here if you weren't! Once your case history is up we will be  best able to help you but in the meantime I want to touch on the  metabolic issues.

Drafts, QHs and PSSM (aka EPSM) horses are very insulin sensitive rather than resistant. Your horse's laminitis and insulin resistance/high insulin  may have come from the PPID/Cushing's or the high fat diet - or both.  While it's possible that PSSM may aggravate the Shivers gait, Shivers is not caused by PSSM https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25714471/ .

The reason for the low carbohydrate diet in PSSM is to limit the amount of glycogen that  can be deposited while with IR it is to limit insulin stimulation. The low carbohydrate portion of the PSSM diet is appropriate for PPID/IR (if it's low enough) but the high fat is a problem. You can substitute acetyl-L-carnitine for the high fat https://uckele.com/acetyl-l-carnitine.html , 1 gram per 100 lbs of body weight, twice daily. If this is your first Uckele purchase, use coupon code UHNWELCOME for 10% off and you can use ECIR coupon code for any subsequent purchases. ALCar also helps with nerve damage (but not a quick fix).
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Oh couple more questions.

1. Is it possible that the high thyrol supplementation contributed to the hypertriglyceridemia? Thinking out loud about how it could increase calorie use??

2. Is it possible this all began around 2/9 and I mistakenly thought it was ppid contributing to the sore feet when in reality it could have been metabolic hypertriglyceridemia?
3. How long does he need to be off prascend to get a good trh stim.  Contemplating having it run with the insulin panel tomorrow?

I am thinking about the plans for when he comes home.

Thanks Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

"Racehorse oats" are extra heavy, grade 1 oats - best quality.  Yes, r/s/r BP.

You can cut back 3 to 4 lbs of hay for every 2 lbs of oat/BP mixture
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Thanks Dr Kellon, so all still comes back to insulin!!...wow!. Vinnie is making me learn soooo much!!


--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

Hypertriglyceridemia per se doesn't cause laminitis - e.g. starved horses don't get laminitic. It's  the high insulin that goes along with metabolic hypertriglyceridemia in some animals that causes the laminitis.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

He's super comfortable on it, and would be rideable if he wasn't constantly having laminitis from outside issues.  He just had a 3 week bout of laminitis because we got a bunch of rain and the grass really sprang up in his paddock over a couple of days time.  I've been killing it and covering it but he still got enough to affect him (which reminds me I need to update his case history again).  He's finally doing much better this week, so hopefully I can start him with hand walking in the next few days.  It's been rough, because there was a tenant at the barn who would sneak and feed him carrots and apples.  She finally got kicked out of the apartment there I think it was before Christmas, and Willie of course improved greatly for about 5 weeks, and then the rain came and grass started sprouting up.  He was walking and trotting 30 mins a day, but in turn out, not riding.  I haven't ridden him much at all though.  It seems like there's always a set back when he's looking good enough for me to get on.  Fingers crossed I can keep him treat and grass free.  We should be go to go then. 


--
Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526

Thank you...
Well DARN!   I will be sending all those back. 
I just went on to Lucky Vitamins and they have a good variety of vit e caps that contain oil.  I already ordered some.
--
Linda in CA  2020  Midnight and Ostara

if you do a file "save as" you should be able to find pdf in the option list.

If not you can also try "print" and then instead of selecting a printer, pdf is usually an option.  Be sure to keep both files as you will need the .doc to update later on. 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

Hello - I'm trying to upload my case history for one of my mares Crystal Blue.  I am not able to save it is a PDF - I can read PDF files but in order to convert, I have to purchase a program. Not sure what to do with my file now. 
--
Sandy Kemp
Northeast Pennsylvania
Minis with laminitis/cushings
2021

Hi Sandy,
I have had Mad Barn Amino Trace since just after Christmas.  It was started the wrong way at the vet clinic and it smells awful, even to me.  I had to start all over again and I am finally up to one oz. perbeet pulp feeding(twice daily).  Start slow and see if they like it.  If not Mad Barn told try two to three pellets per day.
--
Kandace K Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259062

Per the company, the Balancer:

https://tributeequinenutrition.com/sites/default/files/Wholesome-Blends-Balancer-Sell-Sheet.pdf

NSC 15%, minimum 5% fat, inverted omega 3 to 6 profile. Contains dehydrated carrots, cane molasses, re-cleaned whole oats, sweet potatoes, black oil sunflower seeds, canola meal and oil

Senior formula:

https://tributeequinenutrition.com/sites/default/files/Wholesome-Blends-Senior-Sell-Sheet_0.pdf

NSC 16.5%, minimum fat 8% , inverted omega 3 to 6. Contains wheat middlings, cane molasses, sweet potato, dehydrated carrot, re-cleaned oats, black oil sunflower seeds, rice bran, yucca

Neither is even close to being appropriate for PPPID/EMS/IR horses.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

H Laura
Your description stood out to me because Glo showed same signs after getting on the diet/prascend and doing much better.  She ended up being positive for Lymes.  She was very touchy about her body and extremely crabby.  Overall not her usual self.  Thought Id mention this as you are in a tick area.  Good luck!
--

Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360

Hi Kelly,

If you contact the company ,they should be able to tell you.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

I looked in the files with the feed analysis and saw information about Tribute Kalm 'N Ez and Tribute Senior Sport. 
Has anyone done an analysis of  Tribute Wholesome blends? The information the company provided spells out the NSC % but doesn't break down sugar and starch. They say it is low in sugar and starch but I"m not sure what that means. 

--
Kelly & Micah, Clayton NC

April 2016

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20%20Micah 

Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1829  .

 

          

Ero has been on his ECIR diet and improved hoof care for 4 months. We're seeing great improvement in reduction of fat on crest, over back and tail, improved body conditioning score. Vet is out tomorrow for spring shots (banamine is ready to go before and after). Saddle fitter came yesterday and he's lost 100 pounds by weight tape. Waiting for ice and mud to subside so I can get the trailer out for a true weight at the scales. Feet look great (he's now barefoot) and we're slowly building sole, working with barefoot trimmer on 3 week cycles. Will be getting rads soon. 

Ero is still in rehab work and can begin tack walking this week. His coat and mane are still a bit dull despite the diet changes. Given the change in his body condition, we've had to add a Prolite pad for now until he develops muscle again for his saddle to be balanced front to back (shimmed in back), otherwise it's still a good fit. 

ISSUE: with the reduction and rationing of hay (always soaked), Ero has become much more crabby and barn staff have him on the "watch out list". He is very touchy over his low back/SI and flanks. Especially right side. Pinned ears, wrinkled muzzle, hind leg lifts - it's been several weeks and it's not getting better. This just isn't my horse. I'm fairly certain he has hindgut inflammation of sorts. Possibly ulcers, although he hasn't been scoped. My fitter has had great success with this product (although it's out of stock): https://sciencesupplements.com/products/gut-balancer-3-3lbs-1-5kg-powder?variant=32103755907169  

Searches for "hindgut" were pretty dated, so I'm reaching out to see if/what was recommended for hindgut inflammation for EMS horses. I've considered adding Aloe Vera juice, but i see that as a front gut preventative mostly. As of last week, Ero is no longer interested in his "grain" vit/min mix either (and he eats everything, except moldy hay!). He's leaving over half of it behind in each feeding. He does eat the flax separately if spit into feedings. I was considering removing the monosodium phosphate from our next batch of prepped grain. 

Any experience or input on the above "Science Supplements" product? Uckele G.U.T. or Succeed have also been recommended, but I think i need treatment first, then a maintenance plan?

I will ask my vet, but typically they are not as well-informed about EMS horses and seem to push the typical Purina products. I'm guessing she'll propose Outlast. 

Up to this point, I've simplified everything ... but he's not getting better and he needs more support. He's constantly chewing/grinding/releasing when touched. He does get gentle bodywork (MM/acupressure) and is on a rehab exercise program (groundwork since Dec). Daily turnout/dry lot. He's always hungry and crabby, but does try to behave with me. This rollercoaster has been rough. 

TIA for experience and/or suggestions. Lastly - I'd love to turn him out 24/7, but there is no dry lot option where I board (pasture only). Quality dry are hard to come by. 

--
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Colgate, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album