--hi, my mare has had swollen eyes on and off for about 2 weeks. I have a fly mask on ,day and night when bad. I  had eye ointment also , seen by dentist, and trimmer . I can't help think it is to do with ppid, as she is negative , but not far off. 64 and 69 positive.if I can't it sorted with in 2 days, as I do so far . I will get the vet. I was going to call and she was was fine. I've had to use hay from other sources  as it is very hard to get hold of I don't know what to give her if I can't get any st all .she is hay only.
She hasn't got swollen eye pockets just the lids.

sandy
, joined 27th January 2020. location. Cornwall-England

Hi I tried sending this last week and did not notice a reply ..was there something I may have missed?My pony and gavi both have slightly elevated  liver enzymes on blood Chemistry test in office..the cbc is going to Cornell for both 
--gavi is the only 1 on ivonkana but both are cushings and on pracend ..and thoughts here or wait and see blood CBC from Cornell to see more info ? TRIGLYCERIDES were also requested to be checked on Gavi..Thank you ,Tara
Tara and Gavilon
Mass.  Nov 2017
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tara%20and%20Gavilon
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=11449

Thanks for responding Eleanor. Is an insulin result of 42.5 acceptable even though it is not normal, I.e. will it be likely he will continue to be laminitic with insulin at that level?

Thanks for the ALCAR info. If he were yours would you have him in anything for pain such as Devil’s claw or Boswellia? He has previously been on a Devils Claw herbal supplement but it was hard to tell if it was helping. 

Yes after just 3 trims his feet have become a mess. I think I need to seek out someone else to help me ASAP. 

Jenny 
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Jenny Comish
England, UK
Dewi Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jenny%20Dewi
Dewi Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257833

Jenny,

You would have to check UK prices but  here Invokana is much more expensive. Your vet is right about the metformin but for some horses it works long term. For now, I would watch him carefully and if he backslides decide which one to try.

ALCar dose is 1 g/100 lb of body weight = 2.2 g/100 kg.

His feet have become deformed since January/February. It's not just high heels. The entire hoof is much too long and underrun. It's like walking on stilts. They are putting very abnormal forces on the hoof structures.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Seen - thank you :) 
--
Laura Heit - Ontario 2021

Hi Ann,

I wonder if he would be less upset with the muzzle if he can't eat out of it at all?  He might learn that he doesn't have to eat when he's out with his buddies.  I don't know what options you have, but turning him out after eating a hay meal (full tummy) and for short periods before coming in for snack, might help.  You'll figure out a system that works for you both (maybe your current system of measuring temps is the best compromise)...we can only advise on the EMS related care.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Thanks Sherry I will get more bloods done whilst off Metformin - like you say it is the only logical thing to do. 👍
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Jenny Comish
England, UK
Dewi Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jenny%20Dewi
Dewi Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257833

Hi Debby,

While it's not ideal, as long as the hay is low s/s it's probably ok to free feed for 2 weeks.  I'm sure she could put on a few lbs in that time.

What I do if I'm going to be away is measure out a day's worth of hay into garbage bags (sometimes I divide it into AM and PM feeds, too) , then ask my boarder to set it out in hay nets.  I'd want to feed at least 2x a day doing this though, since I'm sure my horse can finish all his ration in 6 hrs, so if your sitter can't feed 2x a day then the round bale seems like the next option.  Or, can you find someone else to do the AM or PM feed so your sitter only does one feed?  Even if all the hay is fed at the barn, rather than spread out, at least she can't overeat.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Thanks Kirsten 😊. What’s making me unsure what to do as regards the Metformin is that clinically he now seems about the same as when he was on it - so do I keep paying out for it without really knowing if I am wasting my money. This is why I wonder if I should blood test again - if his insulin has gone up then start the Metformin again. Does this sound like a plan? 

But the other thing is that after 7 weeks of being on the Metformin he was still not right - definitely way better, but still lame. So how long do I leave him like that for as I don’t know if he will come good on his own whilst on the Metformin? Is it possible that with the kick start to his metabolism that the Metformin was hopefully giving him that over time the increased movement he is capable of doing will then in turn reduce his insulin and maybe the Invokana won’t be needed?  

On the trimming front I am seriously tearing my hair out! 😡😤 Did you manage to learn from reading things and advice given here? 

Jenny
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Jenny Comish
England, UK
Dewi Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jenny%20Dewi
Dewi Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257833

I don't think we can answer that.  They both do.  It depends on what the horse is diagnosed with, and how it is managed.

Approx 20% of horses have EMS at baseline.  But certain breeds have a higher incidence, and some breeds have essentially none.  Not all EMS horses develop laminitis though.

PPID gets more common with age, I've seen it here that about 1 in 5 horses over the age of 20 have PPID or abnormal ACTH.  If PPID is well-controlled by medication then laminitis is less likely.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Nancy,

I answered your private mail.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Hi Jenny, 

Sorry to see Dewi's trim has gone off the rails.  :(   Many of us have had to pick up the rasp and learn to trim ourselves.   It is not easy at first, but you wouldn't be the first one to struggle through it.

I also wanted to say that as long as Metformin is working (given his history, an insulin of 42.5 uIU/mL is awesome!) and he is feeling better, it's the safer and cheaper medication option.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 08:47 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:

In my experiments with soy hull pellets, they turn into gummy paste if they sit too long soaking, which some horses (mine included) do not care for. 

Hi Kirsten,

This is interesting. I've never experienced this,in all the years I've fed soy hull pellets to my herd.
 
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Hi Karen,

The soy hull pellets or RSR beet pulp make up the mash for the supplements.  Most horses like beet pulp but sometimes they need to adjust to it.  Adding salt can make it more palatable.  Because it is fed RSR (ie wet), the supplements stick to it and are eaten as well.  In my experiments with soy hull pellets, they turn into gummy paste if they sit too long soaking, which some horses (mine included) do not care for.  Just dampening soy hull pellets with a bit of water so supplements stick, and feeding right away keeps them more solid and less gummy, so the texture might be more appealing.  That works for my horse.

Not knowing your pony's weight, I'll give you the amounts for a 1000 lb horse, and you can reduce accordingly depending on his actual weight, so fir example a 500 lb pony would need half of these amounts.  We recommend the minimum daily salt ration 1-2 Tbsp for a 1000 lb horse (it depends on the Na and Cl in your hay, and more is needed if sweating) to be fed with minerals, plus free choice loose salt.  Unless your horse uses his teeth on it, a block does not provide enough salt.  1600-2000 IU vit E, in capsules containing oil or as a powder mixed with a tiny bit of oil to make a paste.  2-3 oz fresh ground flax seed. 

I feed pergolide in a small handful (1/4 cup or less), of extruded feed that is "safer" for EMS horses.  Others put it in an empty peanut shell, or the core of a small slice of carrot or a hole drilled into a hay cube.  If your pony is actively laminitic though, I'd avoid extruded feeds and carrots, and consider syringing it in (dissolve tablet in warm water in a medication syringe).

Getting the diet as tight as possible is the best thing you can do right now to reduce hoof pain.  After 24-48 hrs you should see improvement in comfort.  If not, then the trim is likely contributing to the pain and needs to be dealt with.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Thank you both so much for your super quick comments. In answer to your question Sherry about the Metformin, my vet didn’t see it as a long-term medication, just something to get his metabolism going. And I’ve read it tends to stop working. So my vet said to stop it after about 7 weeks of being on it and see how he is. Apart from those coupe of ‘off’ days, he seems about the same now as when he was on it. I’m happy to put him back on it again (apart from the cost - £72 per month, which I think is about £99 dollars 😬). But the tricky thing is I don’t know if his insulin is worse or not since coming off it - I guess I should blood test again? But I am getting seriously broke from all the blood tests etc....

The other thing is that if I really ought to be getting him on Invokana, should that be used on its own without Metformin? I don’t want to pay out for a month’s supply of Metformin if really he’d be better off just going on the Invokana. 

I’m not using the same trimmer any more no. I’m quite stressed about his feet. It’s all turning into a bit of a nightmare. It feels like the only way to sort this is to quit my day job and train to be a trimmer. I find all the Pete Ramey articles and trimming advice overwhelming and I was hoping I could trust in the trimmer who offered to help me to know what they are doing but clearly not. It seems Dewi is now even worse off than in February. 

I think I need to find someone who is willing to look at the advice I get from this forum - most won’t taken any proper notice and think they know best. 

Thanks again, I really appreciate it.

Jenny
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Jenny Comish
England, UK
Dewi Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jenny%20Dewi
Dewi Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257833

Thanks Lorna, used to have Maxisoy years ago for our dear deceased now mini/shetland cross. Will see if I can track some down tomorrow. We did mix beet pulp with his Zero pellets and chaff and he managed to sift everything out and left the beet pulp behind every feed, so have given up on that.
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Karen Bevis in Tas Australia, 2021

Hi Karen,

Did you see Maxine's suggestion? Maybe just the soy hull pellets ,as a carrier, would pass inspection,if he won't touch beet pulp ?

Maxine said, "Can you get Energreen Maxisoy? It's soyhull pellets, nutritionally similar to beet pulp and a safer feed than the chaffs. You can mix it with beet pulp as well (that's what I do) after rinse/soak/rinsing the beet pulp."

Loose salt ( rather than salt block ) can be included in the mix .


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Thank you all. It will take us a few days to get our heads around all of this information. We can take some photos later this week when we have more time. What is your advice for giving him his medication and the suggested supplements - vitamin E, flax meal, salt - without a mash to hide it in? I know we can get a salt lick, but how to get the other items into him? And what would the quantity of vitamin E and flax meal?

Thank you!
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Karen Bevis in Tas Australia, 2021