Date   

Re: Here I go again, more confusion with Des

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You need current labs, insulin and ACTH and if there's any question about it being feet, block at least one foot. You can give J with DC - just be sure to titrate the dose to gum color.  LaminOX is a better choice that plain Jiaogulan https://uckele.com/laminox-3lbs.html.  ALCar is for chronic neuropathic hoof pain. Put her boots back on with socks and shipping wraps if you have them.

People have trouble this time of year every year. It's cold weather trtiggered. There's no evidence the rise in changing.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Concern over hoof Bulge

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Debbie,

Normally, soaking for a suspected abscess is a reasonable route to try. I had suggested stopping the soaking in this particular case because you are dealing with penetration in all 4 feet. There is little-to-no sole depth, so keeping things moist might compromise what little sole integrity there is.

You could make an epsom salt poultice and wrap it around the coronary band/upper potion of that LF, secure with some vet wrap. Then wrap the entire hoof in a diaper to keep t clean and dry (plus it will soak up any exudate there may be) and put the hoof in a boot.

I'm wondering if that bulge may be a reaction to the pressure from the overlong toe and the tight constriction in the growth just below it. The foot appears to be flaring more laterally and the growth rings appear to be more compressed on the lateral side as well. Relieving those issues will definitely help the entire foot. In general, need to get all the weight bearing off the walls as they are detached, so not able to provide any support at all at this time.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Audi Update 22 Jan 21

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I would absolutely defer to Dr Kellon for guidance related to was the bran.

Ad far as sand and poop consistently, yes I have seen it effect consistently too. 

--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Here I go again, more confusion with Des

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Sorry, Pat. I know that's beyond frustrating. Some things to consider:

- insulin/ACTH level check - done
- is she still on metformin? twice a day? any insulin checks since starting it? even if it was working initially that can change over time
- this wouldn't be the first time that someone has hit a spot in their hay supply that is higher S/S than the analysis - soak if you can
- unless the trim has been corrected since last summer there could be a mechanical component here

When pain is only cold triggered the feet do not typically feel hot but can't rule out a component of cold  induced vasospasm.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Audi Update 22 Jan 21

lindsaykrauland@...
 

Thanks, Nancy. I'll check his manure for sand. We are a bit sandy here, but he rarely eats off the ground. Does the consistency of their manure change when sand is an issue? He pretty much went from normal to cow patty plops in just a day or two.

The wheat bran was a direct suggestion from Dr. Kellon. I have been wondering whether it is the cause of his tummy issues, but I'm not so sure since he was fine on it for 6 weeks or so.

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: Audi Update 22 Jan 21

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Sorry for the typo-- correction

*We have lots of sand here and horses that are not getting de sanded get sour smelling poops, and maybe a sign that they have to be de sanded*


--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Audi Update 22 Jan 21

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

If he were here in Oakley, we would start a sand regimen. We have lots if sand here and horses that are both getting de sanded get sour smelling poops as a sign that they have to be de sanded.  I always have my guys in some gut supplement with pre and prebiotic support.  I use GUT and Absorb All from Uckele.

I have also read tbat wheat bran can mess up the healthy flora in the intestines and that psyllium is a better source of fiber of that is why it is being used.

Hope that helps :)
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Here I go again, more confusion with Des PART 2

Bobbie Day
 

I’m pretty sure they’re not supposed to be fed together if memory serves. I’ll see if I can find it Nancy.
Hopefully someone knows for sure.
--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Here I go again, more confusion with Des PART 2

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I hope she continues to improve. I have Vinnie on laminox and cbd with DC so I hope those are OK together.  Following for this answer too. 

My guess it was the increased prascend dose that helped drop insulin, but I am purely guessing:)
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Here I go again, more confusion with Des PART 2

Bobbie Day
 

Ok, now I am even more perplexed. Last night as reported Desi could hardly move, I decided to take a step back and start her on laminox and up her dose to 1MG of Prascend since treating her for her knee pain was not working.
Fed her last night , she was still struggling. Dosed her with the laminox via syringe ( she won’t eat it) didn’t give anymore PQ or DC but gave her CBD. It rained all night long and all I could think of was her being down in the rain and not able to get up. This morning I go out , she’s in the far side of her coral so I call her to come eat (apparently stood out in the rain all night) and she has a very slight gimp but came right away and was able to put her head down and eat ! Don’t get me wrong I was over the moon she could walk good enough to move around but now I am even more confused.  Either the rubs I’ve been putting on her knee finally kicked in or she desperately needed something for nerve pain BUT would or could the laminox work so quickly?   It’s been a long time since I’ve used it but I don’t remember immediate results.
Dr.K I hope you’ll weigh in here I really need some insight here. I pray she will continue to feel better. I cannot give her DC while on Laminox correct? So no PQ unless it’s the powder? 
Thank you- 

Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Metabolic test results back; seeking interpretation of results. #file-notice

Laura and Ero
 

Thanks Sherry. Please see my responses below. 

since Ero's ACTH is in the teens I don't think it's something you need to worry about testing again unless you have reason to suspect he is becoming PPID.   

I didn't think PPID at all given his age, but it was part of the combined tests that were offered by the vets in the area and I figured I'd get a baseline. I'm happily surprised he's not IR, but alas is still EMS. Are repeat tests recommended annually or more often? Going forward, just Glucose and Insulin?

As for Leptin, I've read/understand that it's not really necessary, but the response from my report says it's a often pre-indicator of correlating insulin levels. But what do I do differently that I'm not already doing?  

Was this test done fasting or non-fasting?  

He was kept in his stall and given hay/water only that morning. He had been eating hay for at least 3 hours or more.

 

Have you had him checked by a chiropractor? 

Yes, every 8 weeks (also a vet). But she's never adjusts his hip or much below the barrel. Hence my frustration as she agrees with other vet's assessment that he's a bit off. In his most recent lameness eval, the report indicated "mild fasciculation over RH hamstring during flexion." For what it's worth, I've also tried acupressure and PEMF (but neither on a regular basis). On to an osteopath ... 


Is he still being fed the alfalfa/grass mix hay?  If he is, is it being soaked prior to feeding?

Yes, although I don't think there's a lot of alfalfa. It was the best of the two choices I have available for me at the time (boarding) and the one Dr. K suggested of the two. I had all options tested and they are posted in my file. Dr. K said I did not need to soak given the numbers. However, I have experimented with this (always spraying down if not soaked), and for the past 3 weeks have continued soaking since he's been out of work. Every bit helps, right? Frankly, I'm not sure it's making a huge difference aside from water intake. 

 

As far as the trim, I don't know if you've asked Lavinia for input (and she's quite backed up at the moment) but once you get the pictures of the fresh trim posted I would suggest asking her for some input ASAP so you can have it before the next trim.  

I will get these posted and request a look from Lavinia. He's on a two week cycle now for a bit. My trimmer has been excellent in answering my gazillion questions and helping me on this path. She's a strong supporter of ECIR and was the one who suggested I post photos and ask again about the diet given how his hoofs are looking.  

--
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Colgate, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album


Re: Overlapping supplements?

Shera Felde
 


Re: Concern over hoof Bulge

Jeanne Q
 


Re: Concern over hoof Bulge

deb@...
 

Maxine I've just been told to stop soaking his feet. I was soaking them in epsom salts but was told to stop.?????
--
Debbie Rainbow
Western Australia
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Debbie%20and%20Kody
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259494


Re: Overlapping supplements?

bbolton@...
 

Hi Nancy,
I just wanted to correct an error in your information regarding WIRX. My three mares were in the trial, their conditions all improved They are all still on WIRX and none of them has had another bout of laminitis even though they get an hour of pasture every day. The pasture  is for their psychological benefit, as we are otherwise doing our best to follow the protocols suggested by your site. Despite our best efforts ,prior to the introduction of WIRX, we were getting repeated episodes of laminitis. At the end of September (2020) despite blood tests revealing abnormally high ACTH numbers,  they were still sound. (We did of course increase their pergolide for the seasonal rise at that point).  I would not take my horses off this product as it makes my heart sing to see them happily gallop in from the field each day, something that was missing from our lives for a very long time. 
I acknowledge that this product won't be the answer for all EMS horses, and you cannot expect success without adhering to a low-sugar diet overall and keeping PPID under control with pergolide, but it could make the difference in keeping them on the right side of that fine line we all walk  together with these marvelous creatures. 
 
Lynn, Dakhyri (IR, PPID), Khyara, (IR, PPID)
Duncan, BC  
2017


Re: Overlapping supplements?

sandicalveley@...
 

Nancy,
I do not come on here often, but was informed by members of your comments.  As in past threads on our product, I have posted only to correct facts.  I will do so again.  WIRX only became available to customers in August of 2019.  So, no, you did not ask us for any data in 2017, as WIRX was not even a thought at that time.  Our trials only began in fall of 2018, and at that time we were just testing different varieties of Cranberries.  Yes, one member was part of the trial for the first 2 months, but due to not conforming with the vets protocol was removed from the trial. 
As you know, I reached out to Dr Kellon on several occasions offering product to members with horses not responding to diet, to offer our product for free to try. I have NEVER had a response to my emails.  You have NEVER requested lab results from myself or Dr. F that conducted our trials.
I am very disappointed, that as the president of the ECIR group, you would post such untruths to your members.

We will continue on with our research studies, and continue to help as many horses as we can, through honesty and science.

And as an FYI, the two Welsh ponies in our trial ( one PPID one not) on last testing had insulin of 4 and 3 respectively.  No temperature or season can drop their insulin from 300 and 125. Others not as low but still fantastic, and NO laminitis.

--
Sandi
Vancouver Island BC
Dec 2018


Re: Metabolic test results back; seeking interpretation of results. #file-notice

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Laura,

You did get the lab normals column correct.  The Leptin result usually does take a bit longer than the rest of the results and it would be nice to have the number but isn't essential.  Having EMS does not predict a horse's tendency to develop PPID and since Ero's ACTH is in the teens I don't think it's something you need to worry about testing again unless you have reason to suspect he is becoming PPID.  Was this test done fasting or non-fasting? 

As far as the trim, I don't know if you've asked Lavinia for input (and she's quite backed up at the moment) but once you get the pictures of the fresh trim posted I would suggest asking her for some input ASAP so you can have it before the next trim.  Have you had him checked by a chiropractor?  I would agree with the suggestion for an osteopath or a good massage therapist or a chiropractor to check him out if he's still sore and to do that before you start increasing exercise since you know he's already having an issue.

Is he still being fed the alfalfa/grass mix hay?  If he is, is it being soaked prior to feeding?



Re: Mini leg warmers - home made

Sherry Morse
 

Those are such a great idea - thanks for sharing Francine!



Re: Here I go again, more confusion with Des

Maxine McArthur
 

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 10:05 AM, Bobbie Day wrote:
And I know this is a stupid question but considering all the changes in the environment do you think the rise could be changing too? Would that even be a factor?
That's an interesting thought, Bobbie. While climate change and severe weather will certainly make it harder for our compromised equines to cope, my (very limited!) understanding of the seasonal rise is that the day length determines the hormone changes, not the climate. As day length is (I think--again putting my pathetic scientific knowledge out to be corrected here...) determined by the Earth's axis of rotation as it orbits the sun, I don't think the timing of the seasonal rise would be affected. Maybe. 

 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Overlapping supplements?

Frances C.
 

If the intention of supplementation in this case is to (1) reduce insulin levels and/or (2) reduce pain: then it would be helpful to know what outside influences can alter the basic normal insulin level of that particular animal. If cold air temps increase insulin levels then does high temps. also increase the levels? Is there a happy medium that suits our horses? Does insulin rise as soon as the  horse sees the vet's truck pulls in? Does confining the horse just prior to vet's visit lead to an increase? You say that trailering can lead to an increased level. So how fast can can insulin spike? For instance say  horse sustained a painful injury and the vet was called out it would be expected that his insulin level would be higher than normal. Then if the vet administer some pain med, the insulin level would decrease? If the horse suffers a chronic condition such as arthritis and supplements, nsaids, herbs etc are used to reduce pain levels and also a reduction in insulin levels, then if these items are removed from diet there would be an increase in insulin? What I am asking, trying to determine  is DOES THE ENVIRONMENT OF THE HORSE AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME INFLUENCE INSULIN LEVELS? Is it Insulinwise, WRIX, PEA working to reduce insulin/pain or is it just the environment. I had my horse on Devils Claw, took her off and it seemed she was more painful. I have my horse on PEA and she seems to be less painful but on the other hand since she has been on it the weather has been delightful. She is always in some degree of pain and Im thinking of next time vet is around for routine stuff of asking for two blood draws to determine insulin levels pre and post a fast acting pain killer
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382