Date   

Re: Excessive Drinking and Urination, Confused and Concerned

Maria Duran
 

What comes to my mind reading your initial post is that your PPID diagnose might not be accurate as it was performed in January where it is most difficult to diagnose PPID because the seasonal rise is gone. ACTH lowers until july to slowly increase until october where it peaks, then slowly lowers over the following months, but many horses experience symptoms even in july. I have had to increase dose in early august for example.

So if your horse is not an advanced case he might be normal in January and symptomatic now with higher insulin and glucose. To my knowledge is glucose what drives thrist.

Another things to look for is salt intake, and excesive protein in the diet but if you haven't done changes regarding this I would consider the first.

--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


jesse coat irregular??

LJ Friedman
 

I had the vet out today to run acth, insulin and glucose. Jesse was clipped four or five weeks ago and will get another clip soon. The vet thought that the coat grew back just slightly irregular thinking perhaps the AC TH is not being optimally controlled. Any thoughts on if this coat looks irregular? He thought it should be more sleek


-- https://youtu.be/FESSudUGpD8
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Grey Horse Melanoma and AAKG

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I am not sure if i should post this, but I have found that I can purchase the products. I would have sent a private mail, but as techy as I am, (systems analyst) it eluded me :) ;)
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: New member with a few questions

lbarcay@...
 

Thank you Sherry,
Beginning yesterday morning I have her on a dry lot with 20lbs of soaked hay per 24 hours. I am trying to understand how to update her case history but if I need to re load and convert it back and forth I will get it done this weekend.
I have some body pics I will upload shortly, and will have hoof pics this weekend as well. 
I actually now have timothy pellets separate of alfalfa pellets but she does not eat her supplements with just the timothy but I will get some beet pulp this weekend as well. 
The hay test was done by EquiAnylitical, I'm not sure if that answers your question, but I can do some more research on which test was done.
Is there resources for working with the vet in a way that does not create tension but gets her what she needs? The blood draw was done but a new vet we saw for the first time as I was unhappy with the one we used previously writing off my concerns. This new one was accommodating to me telling him which tests were to be run but besides confirming that her insulin was high did not recommend any treatment otherwise.
--
Lauren A in Northern CO, joined Aug. 2020
Case History - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lauren%20and%20Ziya/


Re: Just got lab results on both my Arabs. Looking for more information.

Ronda
 

Ok- I bought some Stabul 1... anticipating Brute needing it. I will put jag on it. Any suggestions to replace the smartpak smartgut that are IR approved?  So no alfalfa or alfalfa based products ?  Vet was talking about putting brute on prescend As he is not improving like jagger is. 
--
Ronda W in Indiana 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ronda%20and%20Brute
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252431

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ronda%20and%20Jagger
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252430


Re: Whistler - Body Condition & Food Consumption

 

Hi, Reta.
Your Whistler is an enigma. Yes, there could be a link between uncontrolled PPID and Whistler's increased hay consumption required to maintain condition. His coat is shiny and beautiful, I agree. He doesn't look rough. Recognizing all the varied symptoms of ACTH that is under-controlled is not that easy IME. Each horse is unique. My TWH always has a shiny coat (if I bathe her,) but I learned after treating her PPID for several years that her ACTH needs to be at a lower level than I thought to see all the benefits of controlled ACTH. I'm laser-focused on Whistler's rounded belly hanging lower than his heart girth and the sudden need to increase hay to maintain condition. 

We do know that some horses with uncontrolled PPID cannot hold their weight. Others pack on weight. I wanted to get the ACTH/PPID issue first on your check list.  I've never seen ACTH that low. Do you have an explanation why his ACTH in July is lower than in May? 

There can be other causes. That belly could be hay belly. I have one that has that, too. She's my semi-rescue Paint. But she has no loss of top line, and as far as we know, she is not PPID. Older horses have significantly diminished gut flora/fauna that can affect digestion. For that reason, I  intermittently treat my horses with a very good prebiotic, FORCO, if we encounter digestive issues (usually somewhat loose manure). I saw FORCO on Amazon.ca at a ridiculous price. Do you know of something similar that isn't highway robbery? That would be the second item on the check list.  I'm sorry I have no Ontario-specific products to offer. They aren't cheap, but they can help hay belly as well as what I'll call digestive efficiency: effective extraction of nutrients from what is eaten.

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Re: Just got lab results on both my Arabs. Looking for more information.

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Ronda,

Thanks for getting those links up! 

As far as the ADM - it's well above our recommended limit for ESC+starch:

Starch, max 11.0%
Sugar, max.* 5.5%

So I would cut that out as well as the Smartpak were Jagger mine. 

Based on the test results and when the blood was drawn I would be treating them both as IR and not quite as worried about PPID right now.  Since the vet thinks they are PPID did he suggest Prascend or Pergolide for them?




Re: Acute laminitis

 

Barbara, while the bloodwork should also go into your case history folder, if you can get the results from the vet, you can transcribe it into a post so we can assess it.  It would give us a place to start.  Although I am probably the least experienced of the support team in terms of IR diagnosis, there is something about the abruptness of this that doesn’t seem right to me.  I generally think of long lining as pretty demanding work.  Is that how your would describe what you’re doing?  Is there a reason you aren’t doing this training under saddle?  Such as sore back, tender feet?  If you have access to an online account, such as Dropbox or iCloud, I believe you can share links to photos in your post, at least temporarily, photos which might show her body condition and feet prior to this incident.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Casteberry

Lorismorgans
 

Yes, I have been weighing their hay for 3 years.  They get, 19 to
21 lbs. Vet said they looked good weight, but maybe I should upload new pics to get third set of eyes. It just baffles me  why I cant get their insulin down.  Put them on a exercise program and had blood drawn and their insulin only dropped to 30, 40. They are old style Morgans, heavy built. So discouraging. 
Just grateful they have not foundered.


Lori

--
Lori  Able & Bodie

 

2016

 

Redding,CA

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lori%20and%20Able%20-%20Bodie%20-%20Dusty

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6053&p=Name,,,50,2,0,0 .


Re: Excessive Drinking and Urination, Confused and Concerned

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Joe,

I would definitely recommend one of our balancers over paying for the Stride 101 which may or may not actually balance your hay.

As far as your questions:

1 - maybe if it helps bring insulin down (Dr. Kellon can expand on that more but I think we've had a few horses put on it even though they appear to not be PPID and it has helped insulin number)
2 - No.  Other than weight loss Thyro-L does nothing.  However, if your horse has been on it long term you will need to wean him off slowly should you decide to stop it.




On Friday, August 21, 2020, 3:45:47 PM EDT, snowman0157 via groups.io <snowman0157@...> wrote:


Thanks so much for  the replies.    Maybe my notations/dates on the Case History aren't following standard,(or I forgot to save previous updates) but he is not on any Purina feed at this point,  Just Soaked Hay (15lbs) and 1lb of Stride 101 Balancer  which was recommended by my vet.   

Anyway, your replies trigger a couple of basic questions that I'm unclear on re: Medications:
1) Does Prescend provide any benefit for EMS/IR horse that does not test positive (ACTH)  for PPID?
2) Does Thyro-L have any benefit for EMS/IR horse other than helping weight loss?

Sounds like I need to revisit PPID and maybe work with someone from the ECIR approved list  to customize his supplements based upon analysis of his hay 

Yes, I will update the case history.  Thanks again. 
--
Joe S. in TX 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joe%20and%20Shiloh


Re: Just got lab results on both my Arabs.

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Ronda,

When you have a chance if you could add the links to your Case Histories and photos to your signature that would be great:

My first impression for both horses is that they both have long toes with Jagger being worse, although he has better sole depth. If you can add body and actual foot pictures to the photos at some point it will help us but Lavinia who is our resident hoof expert may have some help just based on these.

As far as your lab results, we're getting into the seasonal rise so your ACTH levels are not totally out of the realm of possibility for a normal horse but your insulin levels for both horses are indicative that they are both IR.  With that being said ideally they should both be in a dry lot at this point and receiving weighed amounts of soaked hay (info on soaking is in the welcome email I sent earlier).  With no weights given it's going to be difficult to give you a definite number for how much to feed them but we recommend no more than 2% of ideal weight or 1.5% of current weight - whichever is greater of intake per day. That includes both grain and hay.  If you want to use beet pulp as a carrier for any minerals it should be rinsed/soaked/rinsed to make sure it's as clean as possible.

For Brute my guess would be that he should be about 875 - 900lbs max (I have a 15 hand Arab and he's currently 890 and fit) which would mean he should be eating about 18lbs a day or a tad less.  I'm not sure if the 10lbs of hay is a guess or not, but as he's no longer on pasture he needs more than that. 

For Jagger he's probably supposed to be about 950 +/- so his hay will need to be adjusted as well.  I'd also be very hesitant about continuing the Smartpak as it's in an alfalfa base and many IR horses can't tolerate alfalfa. 

Also, as they're IR you want to replace the Himalayan salt with just plain white salt - 1 oz per day. 

Are they currently in stalls or out in a dry lot?  Do you have boots on them?  Have they been trimmed since the x-rays were taken?




Just got lab results on both my Arabs. Looking for more information.

Ronda
 

Vet says both are mildly cushinoid. Brute is on the emergency diet and has been for about a week. Jagger is on ADM Ultra Fiber and getting Smartpak Smartgut and flax.  But it has alfalfa base. Can he have that? Jagger is bouncing back quickly, Brute not so much. Vet is talking about meds for Brute. Both have been shod according to vet instruction by my farrier. So confused...are they IR also?
--
Ronda W in Indiana 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ronda%20and%20Brute
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252431

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ronda%20and%20Jagger
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252430


Re: Excessive Drinking and Urination, Confused and Concerned

snowman0157@...
 

Thanks so much for  the replies.    Maybe my notations/dates on the Case History aren't following standard,(or I forgot to save previous updates) but he is not on any Purina feed at this point,  Just Soaked Hay (15lbs) and 1lb of Stride 101 Balancer  which was recommended by my vet.   

Anyway, your replies trigger a couple of basic questions that I'm unclear on re: Medications:
1) Does Prescend provide any benefit for EMS/IR horse that does not test positive (ACTH)  for PPID?
2) Does Thyro-L have any benefit for EMS/IR horse other than helping weight loss?

Sounds like I need to revisit PPID and maybe work with someone from the ECIR approved list  to customize his supplements based upon analysis of his hay 

Yes, I will update the case history.  Thanks again. 
--
Joe S. in TX 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joe%20and%20Shiloh


Re: Whistler - Body Condition & Food Consumption

Reta Heaslip
 

Case History is up-to-date. I agree, Cass, samples can be mishandled resulting in test numbers that do not truly represent what's going on. I have also experienced this in the past with a faulty Glucose test. Assuming the ACTH test numbers are actually higher and indicative of uncontrolled PPID, then why is Whistler a picture of good health now that we have increased his daily hay? He does have muscle loss along the topline which has been evident for the past two years, however, there are not other symptoms and he no longer has the look of "abdominal laxity and/or distention that is pulling the skin tight over the ribs". (Dr. Kellon's description of photos dated July 6th.) As Lorna says, "He looks fabulous". My question then is, If PPID is uncontrolled, wouldn't Whistler continue to show symptoms in spite of the fact that he is eating greater amounts of hay?

Is it possible there is a link between uncontrolled PPID and disproportionate hay consumption? As a 14.3 hand horse whose diet, weight, and body condition have been stable since being diagnosed with IR/PPID, could it be that Whistler's increased appetite is a symptom of uncontrolled PPID?




-- 
Reta
Sept 7, 2017
Gananoque, ON, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Reta%20and%20Whistler .

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10035


Re: Acute laminitis

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Barbara,

For us to really help you please join the Case History group (https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory) and then create a photo album named "Barbara and Alada" and upload the x-rays to that album.  You can't attach files to emails for this group.  It would also really help us if you could get a case history started (information on how to do that was already sent to you and is in your welcome email as well) for Alada. 

Some of the other information we need to know is how much should she weigh, what does she weigh now and how much does the hay she's been eating weigh?  If she's IR she should not be eating alfalfa as it is not tolerated by many IR horses.  A quick look at the Hygain would have me not feeding that as well as it's higher in fat and protein than we like to see.  For now I'd have her on the emergency diet (soaked hay) only at no more than 2% of her ideal weight or 1.5% of her current weight, whichever is greater.

As mentioned in your welcome letter bute will not help with a metabolic laminitis and ice is of limited use as well.  Getting her diet in order and her trim optimized will do the most good for her in the long term.  In the meantime putting her in boots (we like the Easyboot Clouds) would be a better option than clogs as it will provide padding for her feet and allow access to do more frequent trims to help correct whatever issues she's having. 

Please remember that you are Alada's advocate and if you don't want them to put the clogs on her you can tell them that you want to do more research before you agree to anything being put on her feet.




Just got lab results on both my Arabs.

Ronda
 

Looking for some advice on the labs I posted under Brute and Jagger. Also posted pics of xray's.
--
Ronda W in Indiana 2020


Re: Casteberry

celestinefarm
 

Lori,
Are you weighing hay?  Haynets with weighed hay is very helpful in keeping weight down on these guys. I'm convinced many lines of Morgans can convert sawdust to fat. I've owned several like that and you have to be regimental about how much they eat. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Acute laminitis

Barbara Sause
 

Alada is a 12 year old Arabian mare
--
Barbara S Arizona 2020


Re: Acute laminitis

Barbara Sause
 


--
im not sure I’m doing this correctly but thanks for your help. 
The drs. are assumed IR because there is really nothing else to cause Alada’s laminitis. It came on her suddenly. I thought it was an abscess. I poultices it one day and called the vet the next morning when she was worse. She is boarded at a farm in Cave Creek Arizona. She has no turnout but gets worked every day. She has been long lineing for Spanish Dressage, so no rider the past month. She eats 1 flake of Bermuda in the morning and 1 at night. She gets 1 flake of alfalfa for lunch. She is on Platinum Performance gi once a day with 1/2 a quart of grain, Hygain Show Torque. She is about 75 pounds overweight. 
The above X-ray is from Tuesday. They took follow up X-rays yesterday which showed mor rotation. I’m sorry I’ll have to get them to send to you. The sole depth measured .6. They want to put the clog on to help stabilize the coffin bone. I was also told they want to remove some toe so she has easier break over. 
They are going to do this at 12:30!  She is on bute ,  metforman and another drug I’m not sure of the name. Ice boots are on her almost constantly. They did do bloodwork but I’m not sure of the results.   I’m not sure what other info I need to send you. 
Thank you for your help
Barbara S Arizona 2020 


Re: Just got lab results and have the xrays. Where and how do I post them?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rhonda,



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