Regional analytical data
Lorna Jane
Hi I'm based in the north east of England and am trying to find out how to find my regional analytical data for grass to balance diets against please . Many thanks
-- Lorna Jane Uk 2020
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Re: River - Laminitis/Founder
Sherry Morse
Hello Anna, Welcome to the group! Before I get into the boilerplate welcome message for the group thank you so much for having a case history and photos done already as that's a big help for us. Getting your hoof pictures labeled as outlined here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1482#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help will help even more. Looking at the pictures that you have posted River appears to have a 'typical' PPID coat starting (meaning more than I'd expect for a horse in Texas at this time of year) and his toes are pretty long which is particularly evident in the composite picture from May to October. As far as his weight, while he appears to have a slight loss of topline, he does not appear to be too thin (although obviously the coat could be hiding ribs). When you did the estimate of his current weight what method did you use? And are you gauging his ideal weight by 'he needs to gain x amount of pounds to fill in' or a different method? In my experience a 14.3 hand saddlebred is actually going to weigh less than 1000lbs as an ideal so just something to consider. For diet - what kind of timothy cubes are you feeding him? Why is he getting alfalfa pellets (we don't recommend alfalfa for IR or PPID horses as noted in the "Diet" section below)? Given his insulin level is so high getting his ACTH under control and his diet as tight as possible is going to be key to get him feeling better. Based on his current vs ideal weight (even given the questions I have above) he should be eating no more than 20lbs a day total - that includes all hay and concentrates. If he's truly eating 15 pounds of hay a day plus 13 quarts of pellets/cubes and Stabul 1 he's probably being fed too much and in not the right quantities to get him where he needs to be. So to start I'd recommend cutting out the alfalfa pellets and adding in vitamins and minerals listed in the Emergency diet to his Stabul 1. If the timothy cubes are not tested low sugar/starch I'd look to switch him to Triple Crown Natural Timothy balanced cubes which are tested to conform to our recommendations. I'd also recommend soaking his hay until you can get it tested. It may seem counter intuitive to feed less if you think he's too skinny, but if the underlying issues of uncontrolled ACTH and IR are addressed he may start to pick up condition. You should plan on retesting him early next month (we say at least 3 weeks after reaching the target dose) to see if the 2mg dose of pergolide is enough or if he needs more to get his ACTH under control. If his ACTH comes down but his insulin remains high he may be a candidate for Metformin, but I would start with the diet changes first and see how he does with those. With that all said, what follows is our basic introduction. It's a lot of information so get comfortable and be prepared to have more questions after you've had a chance to read everything. The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time. Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message
with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any
trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose. The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs. EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.
There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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River - Laminitis/Founder
anna.h.pierce@...
Hello,
His front hooves fit the bill for founder, but he doesn't appear lame and his toe isn't separated. We've controlled his diet and put him on pergolide (recently increased to 2mg, but don't know if that's helping yet). He'll be getting x-rays for his front feet this week. We're thinking there is something else going on contributing to his hoof issues. High iron? Lyme disease? We've tried to control for environmental/diet variables, but his hooves continue to get worse. Thank you, Anna -- Anna Pierce Austin, TX 2020 Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anna%20and%20River Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/
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Re: Metformin help!
It's 30 mg/kg so that dose is for right around 1000 lbs.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Metformin help!
Shera Felde
My vet just supplied me with 1000 mg tablets and said to give Story 14 tablets (14,000 mg) twice a day...The document on this site says 30 mg twice a day...Help!
-- Shera Felde, Central Oregon, 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Story%20and%20Shera https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253720
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Re: Member in Redding, Ca area
TERRI JENNINGS
Hi Lori,
There are a few of us in Arcata about 4 hours from you. I can’t help with a farrier, but the best hay we have had in the last year came from the Scott’s Valley area which is closer to you. We get it from a local feed store here but I would imagine you might be able to get it where you are. It was low s/s and my horses loved it. -- Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott Arcata, CA https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny Joined 2019
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Re: Member Recommended Professionals Lists - Fri, 11/13/2020
#cal-notice
Penny Duthie
I’ll be moving to Murphy NC (part time) in a couple years just bought property there and don’t see anything or anyone in that area?
-- Penny Duthie Grant, Florida Joined January 2020
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Re: Member in Redding, Ca area
Check out the ECIR Regional Members Database for members near you: Ferne Fedeli Magic & Jack 2007 No. California
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Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please
Hi Lindsay,
Wheat bran....grocery store,feed store. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario
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Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please
lindsaykrauland@...
Sorry, reread the recommendation on beet pulp & wheat bran. How much should I add? Keep the rest of the diet the same? Also, where would I buy wheat bran? And is this a better idea than just adding in a few lb of a senior feed?
-- Lindsay in TX 2020 Audi Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi Audi Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156
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Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please
lindsaykrauland@...
I can reply more later but wanted to comment on the food.
I do weigh everything. During the day, Audi and Mo are together on the track with two 5lb hay nets. (I can't guarantee that they each eat exactly 5 lb, but I have never witnessed Mo run Audi off a hay net. Rather, Audi will get first choice of nets, Mo goes to the other, and things seem peaceful from then on.) Otherwise, the horses are separated for meals. They come in in the afternoon for supplements/beet pulp/cubes. And they're in separate pens overnight with the bulk of their hay. For Audi, it's 15 lbs of hay & Safe Starch, plus any of the beet pulp/cubes he might have left over from the afternoon. He eats everything about 50% of the time, the other half he has some leftovers. And there's always scattered hay on the ground that Mo is all too happy to come vacuum up in the morning. Therefore, I don't think Audi acts terribly hungry, and I think I would need a concentrated source of calories if I were to try and bump up his intake. What would you recommend? As far as his intake not providing enough if he's a hard keeper, again, I'm confused. He's getting at least 24 lb of food, which includes over 1,000 gm of protein a day and something like 25,000 calories. (In practice it's usually a tad more, as I'll pop an extra pound of beet pulp in his bowl here and there or stuff his Savvy feeder as full of hay as I can for overnight.) 24 lb is 2% of his estimated ideal weight of 1200 lb. What am I missing? Current diet is: 15 lb hay 4 lb Safe Starch 1 lb Ground Flax 2+ lb RSR Beet Pulp 2 lb ODTBC Plus the assorted supplements listed in his CH. At various times I tweaked his diet, using Dr. Kellon's recommendations, to include about half his calories from a mash of beet pulp/cubes/flax plus generous amounts of Safe Starch. Again, his weight stubbornly refused to improve. He actually did have free choice hay until last month. Mo was getting too fat on free choice + I wanted to better monitor Audi's intake, so I switched to all weighed meals and separating the horses once I got the current batch of hay, which was right around the start of Oct. -- Lindsay in TX 2020 Audi Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi Audi Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156
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Re: Manganese in Timothy Balanced Cubes
Sandra Draibye
Thanks Dr. Kellon! If a potentially EMS horse is on Amino Trace + and has hay with iron at 93 ppm - if you are feeding 3-5 lbs of the balanced timothy cubes a day, is there some point at which the higher manganese to balance the copper and zinc, along with no iron might become an issue?
-- Sandra on Vancouver Island, B.C. December 2018
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Re: Metformin and slow feeder help
Shera Felde
Thank you. I have tied nets to fences but then worry about they're (neck) posture. Would that be preferable to ground (pillow?) feeders or is it all OK?
-- Shera Felde, Central Oregon, 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Story%20and%20Shera https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253720
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Re: Metformin and slow feeder help
Have you tried putting screw eyes into walls or fencing and using double ended snaps or quick links to secure the hay bags off the ground?
Metformin would be continued until and unless there is a significant change in the management like lower S/S diet or more exercise. For most horses it becomes less effective over time but some continue to be helped. There are also some that don't respond or don't respond enough. Peak effectiveness occurs within a week by available data so you can retest then to see if it's worth continuing. Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Metformin and slow feeder help
Shera Felde
I got back Story's bloodwork and x-rays. Her insulin is higher than ever (200). She is currently on mineral balancing, Vit E, Glycocemic EQ, Thyro L, Jiaogulan, & Flax. The vet suggested I try Metformin. How long do I use this or is it forever? I'm also wondering if I should go back to nets/pillows. I have nets but it's hard to let them eat from the ground without them trashing the nets. I could try pillows? I am soaking about 50% of the time due to frozen hoses...
Her leptin, ACTH, and glucose were normal. Palmer angle on her coffin bone decreased from 16 to 10. Thanks for any help on the Metformin (I did read the doc's available on the site) and slow feeder ideas. -- Shera Felde, Central Oregon, 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Story%20and%20Shera https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253720
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Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please
The vibration from shoes has been well explained but numbness remains a theory. Having seen countless lame horses with shoes on I have trouble buying the supposed pain blocking effects. They do keep the walls from expanding as much which can explain some of the pain compared to barefoot when connections are weak, and rehab trims also gradually put the horse back to bearing weight on all hoof structures rather than just the walls. This also can cause discomfort.
Not all horses become sore when you pull their shoes. We used to routinely pull shoes for several weeks to months at a time on our Standardbreds in race training. They were worked as usual on stone dust tracks and never had a problem - but they also had very healthy feet with strong walls and I was a PITA about how they were shod! Shod or bare, the trim is still the most important factor. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please
Fecals have several drawback including poor detection of bots, tapeworms, encysted Strongyles and even adult Strongyles often don't lay eggs in cold weather. It wouldn't hurt anything to repeat the Equimax.
7 lbs of senior feed isn't that much considering the work he was in then. Senior feeds are much lower calorie and higher fiber than regular bagged feeds. Free choice hay probably made up for that. If he truly is a hard keeper type he's currently not getting enough calories to support even 1100 lbs, assuming he is still getting 1 lb of flaxseed daily. Are you weighing all his food? -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Member in Redding, Ca area
Where can I find other ECIR members in my area? It would be nice to share and get local help for hay, trimmers vets. Since moving here it has been a rough learning curve, on hays, selenium, oaks, tick diseases.
-- Lori Able & Bodie
2016
Redding,CA https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lori%20and%20Able%20-%20Bodie%20-%20Dusty https://ecir.groups.io/g/
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Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please
Hi Lindsay,
Just a possible explanation for why Audi might be in more pain now than he was with shoes on. I recently did a trimming course with Hoof Geeks and one thing they mentioned that stood out for me was that after shoes are pulled, sometimes months after, and circulation is gradually restored to the hoof the horse starts the 'feel' it's feet for the first time in a long time. If the hooves are pathological then this can be extremely painful. When the shoes are on, Dr Bowker's says that the vibrations from the metal actually numb the hooves and damage nerves, if you listen to his interview on The Humble Hoof podcast https://thehumblehoof.libsyn.com/long-toe-woes-perspectives-on-navicular-with-dr-robert-bowker he likens this to the vibrations experienced by construction workers jack-hammering cement and the resulting numbness and nerve damage in their arms. Hoof Geeks have been barefoot trimming for 20+ years and they say this delayed pain response is so common that they won't pull shoes without making sure the owner fully understands and is prepared for it, or they will advise getting the hooves healthier with shoes on before going barefoot. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album
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Re: my 17 yo mare
Hi Jennifer,
I agree it sounds like feet could be the major issue here. As for ACTH, early November is still within the tail end of the seasonal ACTH rise. What was the ACTH before TRH was given. We don't have data on normal responses to TRH during the rise yet so the test is not recommended then. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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