What are the risks associated with jiaogulan and it's use, if an emergency comes up (ex.colic & vet administers banamine)?

I am having a hard time finding info in the group of how j-Herb affects sedatives, banamine, or other drugs if needed to be given in an emergency situation.

Thanks
--
MC in Ontario 2020

I tried to post the short video of Bodie to what I had set up as his album but I got a message saying it was not the correct format.  I’ll work on that again as well as take more pictures. There are some of him showing his lack of top line in his photo album.  The rides I’ve taken him on recently are are shorter and easier than the ones we’ve easily done for years. 
--
Lynn McKechnie

N. California, May, 2011

Mica:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lynn%20and%20Mica  
Bodie:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lynn%20and%20Bodie
Bodie photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253481

I just got a note from the breeder tell me how she remembered Majestic and he Dappled  for her and only the product  below fixed him back to black.. she uses it for all horses that come into her facility 

She mentioned she wanted me to buy the grand Meadows premium plus .  Can this off the shelf item. ever be as good as my custom supplement plus the additional vitamin a ,E,  forco , flax and salt that I add?

https://www.grandmeadows.com/product/grand-premium-plus/

Hi Laura
The main thing I worry about with letting soaked hay sit in a net is bacterial growth. I think it depends on several variables--air temperature while the nets are waiting to be eaten, whether the filled nets are wind-dried or sitting inside a closed container, how densely the nets are packed, whether the hay is soft fine hay that holds the water or coarse stalky hay that drains quicker, whether the nets are thick or thin twine (thin dries quicker), and how fussy your horse is. There are probably other things to consider as well, but those are the ones that spring to mind. 

I found that in summer I had to feed the soaked hay immediately or the hay in the centre of the haynets would start to smell sour after a few hours and the horses would refuse to eat it. In winter I could get away with the net waiting overnight. If you are in a place that freezes overnight, even better. 
If I soak hay the night before for a morning feed, I usually spread it out to dry overnight and stuff the haynet in the morning. Would you be able to do something similar--that is, if you are soaking and stuffing the next day's haynets in the evening, could you soak that hay in the morning but stuff the nets with the dried hay in the evening ready to go the next day? Or even soak a few days' worth and dry it ahead of time? I have a friend who uses an old trampoline where she spreads and dries about a bale of soaked hay every couple of days. Once the hay is dry, she fills all her nets. 

You can also look in the Horsekeeping sub-group for message threads on soaking hay. I searched with "soaking hay" and got many useful messages. 

HTH


--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

Thank you Dr. Kellon.

--
Renée and Camilla
Port Cartier, Québec
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Camilla%20Case%20History.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254670

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81104

Hi Pattijo
Welcome to the group. As Lavinia says, we can't suggest possible supplements unless we know some more about your horse and what you're trying to achieve by using the supplement.
In order that each member's information doesn't become lost in long message threads, we ask members to create a case history for their horse and upload it to the Case History subgroup. Then you can add the link to that case history into your automatic signature, so the volunteers can click on the link and view your information (you can see my case history links in blue below in my signature). 
All the instructions for creating a case history are in the welcome post (and the links contained therein) below. You can click on the live links in the post to get to further information about the group's philosophy and recommendations. You can also search the messages for posts discussing MSM and various alternatives for arthritis relief (if that is why you want to feed the MSM). Just use the Search button at the top of the page in the Messages section (where we are now). 

Let us know if you get stuck anywhere creating your case history, and enjoy the reading--there is a lot of information there, so take your time and ask further questions if you have any. 

Hello 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

• low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
• low fat (4% or less) 
• mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. 

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

Hi Patti,

HA is fine to use but the Effortless HA also contains Yucca, which is not recommended for IR/PPID horses.

What product would be suitable will depend on what problem you are looking to address.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

-400  mg cooper, 1200 mg zinc are  and in his custom supplement that he gets daily at  present. Should I go higher? My local vet offered a blood test for copper. Waiting for some direction from the group-
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 

My guy loves his hayball (dry - before I was soaking), but also now wet. It works better dry (less big clumps). Curious to hear of that’s not advised, but in my experience it hasn’t been a problem. 
--
-Laura (WI, USA), 7 year-old PRE, October 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ero%20and%20Laura

This video was taken yesterday. I’ve never seen the dapples on my horse before. The previous owner said she had seen some on his rump but never on the sides. I sent these photos to a Freesian Facebook page and one of the breeders who is a certified nutritionist, said this is a cry out for nutritional deficiency. The dapples and the rusting show a problem, she says. She wanted me to withhold all supplements and put out a copper Salt Lick, which i wont do.
. But is there any possibility this is a nutritional deficiency? It’s been years since I’ve balanced his hay. With a barn that gets different day every few months and different suppliers of Timothy Pellets etc. I just kept things the same. Any thoughts on if this is a problem and what I could do to fix it? Thank you

https://youtu.be/otZJSVjolR0

I read that MSM is not recommended. What is a suitable replacement?  I was looking at Effortless HA (Jeffers Pet).  Thank you.
--
Pattijo in southern Calif 2020

Thank you! 
--
-Laura (WI, USA), 7 year-old PRE, October 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ero%20and%20Laura

I’m currently soaking my hay for 30 min hot or 60 min cold, then removing from water so the sugars are out and the iron doesn’t leach back in. I was told that if the hay sits in water longer than these times, the iron re-absorbs. I board, and have to soak my hay myself. Therefore, I make-up the next day’s hay-nets in advance (splitting into three feedings).

How long can the hay sit soaked and starting to dry (or dried) before it’s eaten? Is there a time frame? thanks. 
--
-Laura (WI, USA), 7 year-old PRE, October 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ero%20and%20Laura

Whether you need to remove alfalfa entirely or not depends on whether Ero has issues with it or not. Some horses have no problems with it, some cannot tolerate even tiny amounts without getting sore feet. Soaking it doesn't help if the horse is having issues from it.

If you must remove him from all hay, the best alternative would be the Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (Triple Crown Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes) as those are guaranteed to be under 10% ESC+starch for every batch. Timothy pellets are an unknown the same way untested hay is an unknown and will vary from batch to batch.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

You don't necessarily have to have irreversible vascular damage to have  cold induced pain.  Some affected horses have never even had an obvious acute laminitis episode. Hyperinsulinemia causes levels of the potent vasoconstrictor endothelin-1 to rise. That coupled with cold induced vasoconstriction is probably the issue although we can't rule out a contribution from cold induced hormonal changes as well.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Hi, Pat. Do you put dry or soaked hay in the ball? I have to soak my hay, but I want to try the hay ball. 
--
Mara
NJ
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mara%20and%20Enzo/?ord=dirname&d=asc