Date   

Re: Stress from Move Precipitating PPID/IR/Laminitis??

lindsaykrauland@...
 

I’ve updated my album with the most recent hoof photos, in handy dandy collage form from my trimmer.  :) Photos are dated 5/29.

Martha, thanks so much for your reply!  I need to run and get my daughter off to bed, but I’ll respond more later.  
--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: cbd pellets

 

I can’t say enough good things about Uckele’s Hemp joint product.
--
Amber, Calliber and now Marquise
Upstate SC
Joined in 2019

NRCPlus Jan 2019
CIR 2019
DEW 2019

Calliber Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Calliber
Calliber Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=82557

Marquise's Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Marquise
Marquise's Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91447


Grass Edema and Potential for Laminitis

 

I’ve noticed recently that Marquise has some odd patches of ventral midline swelling. Is there such a thing as grass edema caused by IR which could indicate his numbers are up and at risk for laminitis?

Marquise is on a track so there are small amounts of baby grass but not a lot.

Thanks so much!
--
Amber, Calliber and now Marquise
Upstate SC
Joined in 2019

NRCPlus Jan 2019
CIR 2019
DEW 2019

Calliber Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Calliber
Calliber Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=82557

Marquise's Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Marquise
Marquise's Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91447


Re: cbd pellets

 

It also contains alfalfa and yucca, if that matters.  I’m wondering why you chose this particular product?  I would probably pick one that contained fewer additional supplements in order to judge the effect of CBD better   I noticed that Uckele does not sell theirs in California.  Do California laws specify that it must be California grown?  Others here have reported some good responses; have you checked on the products they used?
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Our pony Flirt in trouble again!!

LJ Friedman
 


-- We know it’s sometimes difficult to post laboratory results to our file. Why don’t you post them here so we can have a looksee
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


cbd pellets

LJ Friedman
 


-- I have not jumped on the CBD bandwagon. But I feel like I should. Noticed this product contains glucosamine. Is this amount ever OK in our insulin resistant horses?

https://vetcs.com/products/vetpro-hemp-2x-joint2x-horse-pellets

LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Need Shedding Wisdom

 
Edited

Also, running the clippers nearby at dinner time.  I say this having had a horse who would not permit himself to be clipped.  For clipping he got sedated and when that wore off the clipping was done.  Fortunately in his case the clipping was purely for our convenience as he was not IR or PPID.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Stress from Move Precipitating PPID/IR/Laminitis??

 

Lindsay, I’ll bite on the track question.  Some of the others are Dr. Kellon material.  It’s one of those ‘it depends’ answers.  They can be totally sensitive to any blade of grass or not very sensitive at all.  Some things to keep in mind are that grass roots are apparently quite yummy but high in sugar, stressed grasses tend to be higher in sugar and short, sparse grass frequently means they ate it.  I had some ponies in a small paddock with, what I thought was limited grass, only to find when I took them out of there, that it was that way because they had eaten it down!  However, I don’t think I would worry about the track at this point as he certainly isn’t gaining weight off it.

Maybe a bit about ulcers as well.  Everything I thought was a given about ulcers is apparently not necessarily so.  When I was concerned about ulcers, my horse would be desperate for hay to eat but totally disinterested in anything in a bucket, or even grazing.  He also seemed distressed.  I was able to solve the issue with several doses of omeprazole but, since you don’t have much to go on, it would be tricky to know if omeprazole was useful.

And nerve blocks.  They should not be expensive but could be very informative if the Xrays aren’t clear.  We changed our approach with one of our ponies after my daughter graduated from vet school and came home and did nerve blocks on her.  The pony is IR but had been uncomfortable for at least a year although she was tightly managed.  A slightly different approach to her trims and she’s been sound for the past four years.

When will you have the ACTH test results?

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Need Shedding Wisdom

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Kathy,

A couple of other things worth trying are Rescue Remedy, and Lavender.

Lavender on your hands will work,making sure shs gets whiffs of it as you work. Their smeller is really good,as you know,so it needs to be subtle.

-- 

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Stress from Move Precipitating PPID/IR/Laminitis??

lindsaykrauland@...
 

Again, thank you to everyone for your thoughts!  I’ll try to reply here to as many points as I can, without posting multiple separate messages. 

I am still looking for some opinions on our track.   There are photos in my album.  To reiterate, there is some grass, though I try to keep it as low/little as I can.  I’ve been scalping at least part of it every time I drive through to fill hay nets.  Also, my goats & cattle can access it and do their part in keeping the growth to a minimum.  Still, the horses nibble the tiny grass nubs.  Is this amount of grass likely to pose a problem to an IR horse?  (I know some horses are more IR than others, but I’m talking about a “typical” IR horse, assuming such a thing exists!) 

I am also wondering about amino acid supplementation.  Between getting our hay analysis and receiving Dr. Gustafson’s recommendations, I had the horses on Tri-Amino to compensate for the low protein in our hay.  Interestingly, Dr. Gustafson’s recommendations include adding lysine & methionine but not threonine.  Any idea why?  I thought horses couldn’t manufacture any of those three amino acids?

Dr. Kellon, I am confused about deworming.  Audi’s fecal on 4/29 was run in-office.  Are you suggesting that he may be wormy, despite the clean fecal?  If so, should I be requesting another test or deworming him regardless?  (And what product would you recommend, if that’s the case?)

As for the pain in his feet, I really think it’s laminitis, and our trimmer unequivocally stated the same.  It certainly LOOKED like laminitis.  Primary findings were the rocking-horse stance, blood in the white lines, a sole ridge, depressed expression, and heat.  I also believe I felt bounding digital pulses, but I don’t fully trust my diagnostic skills there, so feel free to disregard.  Regardless, is there really anything else those symptoms could be?  You had mentioned navicular & tying up.  Are you still thinking those are likely causes?  Would he be rocking back on his heels (see photos from 5/31 & 6/1) if it were either of those?  My trimmer is going to be sending me hoof photos she took on 5/31.  I’ll post those when I have them, and I’m hoping she may be able to pop on here and offer her take, as well.  Previously, she had discovered small amounts of bruising in his white line, but they had resolved by Audi‘s next appointment with her, and we were assuming the bruises were old since, as you have seen, his foot care was badly lacking in his previous home.  Now I suspect it was ongoing laminitis.  

I do fully appreciate that he doesn’t look like an IR case.  I keep coming back to it, though, because a combination of PPID & IR could explain every symptom that we’ve been seeing.  It just seems far more likely than a combination of different issues each causing one or two of his symptoms.  That said, I don’t want to have tunnel vision and not consider other likely possibilities.  Certainly, his ACTH test should be telling.  But that aside, and keeping in mind that I need to save my pennies as much as possible, what other tests and/or imaging are *most likely* to prove useful in getting relief for this old guy?   You has mentioned nerve blocks.  I’m not opposed to that, but I can’t help seeing $$$$.  Is a lack of P3 displacement alone a strong indication for proceeding with the blocks?  What about the navicular rads?

What about intra-abdominal fat?  Is that something that can plague horses and increase the IR risk in the same way that it can humans?   Could that explain his lack of visible fat deposits w/laminitis? 

Also, I’m confused.  Multiple posts here mentioned that Warmbloods don’t tend toward IR.  However, the 2018 Equine Endocrinology Group Recommendations on EMS indicate that Warmbloods have a genetic risk for EMS (Table 2).  Can someone please clarify?

Does he fit the clinical picture for ulcers?  As I said, he eats quite well.  (I can get hay weights soon.) But naturally, I can’t account for what happens to the food once it’s gone down.  (Though I’m not seeing anything unusual about his manure compared to our other horse’s.). Are ulcers a reasonable explanation for all that we’re seeing?

His larger facial swelling has gone down today.  It popped up quickly and resolved as quickly.  That one’s a head scratcher for me, but it’s gone now, regardless.

Lorna and Martha, Thanks for you thoughts on ticks!  I am reasonably certain that’s not his issue, but I’ll keep an eye out.

Helen, Audi has been in Cloud boots on his fronts since the day we pulled his shoes.  As you mentioned, we do remove them for short periods of time each day to allow everything to air out.  They seems to provide him quite a lot of relief!  Great inventions!  And thanks for the well wishes.  :)

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: Need Shedding Wisdom

gypsylassie
 

Very good ideas.  I agree with Lorna about starting out as if she were a rescue with some "baggage".   It very well may be a physical ailment, but approaching it like a rescue situation wouldn't hurt anything and may ease her mind enough to start.  The only difference, I might leave the face for last.  ( I've always loved Oldenbergs).  
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL


On Jun 6, 2020, at 2:09 PM, Kathy Thomas <kthomas@...> wrote:

Thanks, Dawn, and  to all who replied. I will check out the Madbarn  link. .


--
Kathy 2017 and Donna

Harrowsmith, Ontario

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathy%20and%20Donna




Re: Need Shedding Wisdom

Maxine McArthur
 

A quick addition to Lorna’s advice—try using the back of your hand to touch, it can be more acceptable sometimes. Wearing a soft glove sometimes helps, or fleece grooming mitt. Stroking her legs downward with a springy whip can be calming. These are all ideas from the Tellington “Ttouch”es that have been around for a while and I have personally found quite effective. (Apols if you are already doing this stuff!)

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Need Shedding Wisdom

Kathy Thomas
 

Thanks, Dawn, and to all who replied. I will check out the Madbarn link. .


--
Kathy 2017 and Donna

Harrowsmith, Ontario

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathy%20and%20Donna


Re: Our pony Flirt in trouble again!!

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

Roger,

For Flirt's sake, I'm going to be brutally honest here. I've said many times that "Halfway measures get halfway results". Unfortunately, in this scenario halfway is not at all helpful. The process is DDT.

D - Diagnosis. You seem to have laboratory results but they're not in his file so we can't help you with that. Will assume he at least has EMS.
D - Diet (and medications). This is the cornerstone of controlling insulin/EMS. Without a correct diet as the base, nothing can help. Correct diet means everything is analyzed for safety (sugar and starch), vitamins and minerals correctly balanced. Supplements are not drugs. They don't cure this. What they do is allow the body to function optimally and remove roadblocks to that optimal function. If diet is in place and the animal still needs help, there are medication that can help control insulin. Giving Prascend to an animal that does not have PPID won't help anything.
T - Trim. Correct trim puts the hoof capsule (basically the horse's "shoe") in the correct position to support the internal structures and avoid harmful forces on the weakened laminae and other structures. I don't blame the farrier one bit for wanting radiographs before trimming these feet although the toes could have been safely backed up without them. This scenario isn't familiar to many farriers so the "First, do no harm" principle is understandable.  What's not understandable is letting the toes get that far out of control.

Flirt's size is in his favor. If you can get all these factors under control and he doesn't have osteomyelitis he has a good chance.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: worming ppid older horses

LJ Friedman
 

Thank you for your reply. Hoping Dr. kellon  can weigh in and answer my questions as well. For example, yes worm monthly and continue forever  or, . No based on how you describe things you don’t need to worm? Those kind of replies  thanks 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: horse"s digestive system again,

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I have read that glutamine can help with leaky gut as well 

Is it OK to feed 2oz of psyllium with supplements w/o mineral absorption concerns? I have veen trying to get my horses daily psylluim back in the feed schedule but it is a challenge when ingive supplements 2 times per day.
--
Nancy and Vinnie
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855


Re: horse"s digestive system again,

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Dr Kellon, or anyone else who knows,

Psyllium is an excellent prebiotic and helps regulate water level in the gut.
If feeding psyllium husks to try and prevent liquid farts and liquid squirts following solid normal manure, how much and how often would you feed it?  Both horses in my care have this problem from their hay, which is a chopped mix of very fine to very coarse grasses.  Soaking the hay doesn't help so I have been at a bit of a loss wondering what to do about it.

If a probiotic is also necessary, what do I need to look for in it for it to be effective?

TIA!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Stress from Move Precipitating PPID/IR/Laminitis??

Helen Connor
 

Lindsay, you might try putting boots on his front feet if you have them on hand. My trimmer used that method for several months while my mare was under treatment for laminitis. Of course, you have to still pick the feet and clean the hoof every few days. Some nights we left the boots off while she was in her bedded down stall. It relieved her pain and allowed her to get out in her paddock. Best of luck to you and Audi!
--
Helen Connor and Blessing (IR/PPID)
Scappoose, OR
Member since May 2017
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Blessing
Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6847


Re: worming ppid older horses

 

LJ, the answers to your questions are in Files, specifically the Deworming Guidelines Updated. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Deworming/Deworming%20Guidelines%20Updated%20Nov%202013.pdf 

Better yet, because for some of us, it's easier to understand than to follow advice on faith: Treat yourself to a little background on parasites, their life cycles, the reasons for the timing of deworming, and which dewormers are effective on which parasites. I highly recommend Dr Kellon's online short course on deworming. It's only 3 short chapters organized to deliver what you need to know. 

I agree that deworming can be confusing because IME California vets follow a "public health" approach to dewormers:  they try to avoid dosing errors and building resistance to the remaining effective dewormers. Frankly, they see a lot of...misunderstanding is an understatement... in their practices.  IMO our older horses  should not be plagued by parasites that can't be detected in fecal exams.  It's all much clearer once you know the enemy, to paraphrase Dr Kellon's words. 

Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Re: surpass otc available

cathyjomitchell
 

I used the Voltaren on my mare for a shoulder injury. My vet gave it to me. I think at the time there were some problems getting surpass. (?) 
For my mares shoulder injury, it helped quite a bit and fairly quickly. Just ordered some more.

--
Cathy and Natalie (Morgan)
joined 2008