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Re: Dx Question
Hi Suzanne, although its not grossly inflated I don't think an ACTH of about 58 at the end of August can be considered normal. If you look at page 2 of this https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Seasonal-Changes-in-ACTH-Secretion2.pdf
you'll see that the peak should be no more than around 55 in October. It is interesting that your warmblood is insulin resistant but I think you and your vet should consider his elevated ACTH now a sign of early PPID and that might be partly driving the IR result you got. It may be that he doesn't need pergolide yet but you will want to monitor his ACTH and insulin regularly going forward. If you find he has exagerated allergy symptoms, suppressed immune function, loss of top line, fall laminitis, or soft tissue injuries in the future you'll want to consider PPID first as a possible cause. Just to keep in mind. :) -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Re: Hay Analysis Help
Hi Emma
There is a list of people who will balance your hay for a nominal fee in our Files, here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/HAY%20BALANCING.pdf You could try contacting one of them. -- Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID) Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
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Re: Thoughts on laminitis episode for Canadian mare
If her pain is being driven by laminitis from elevated insulin, the sooner her diet is controlled the better she will feel. I don't want to rush a move if you're not ready because 2 weeks is not long to wait, but if her current hay has not been tested and the barn can't soak it and she's still in her laminitic flare up, then she might improve sooner on a more controlled diet. Ultimately it's your decision to weigh the pros and cons.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Hay Analysis Help
hansonemm@...
I just got my hay analysis back and had been planning on sending it to Gwen Decker at Uckele to help me balance it, but it says I don't have the correct email address when I try to send her an email (I used the direct link to her email that is in one of the group files on here) If anyone could let me know where I can contact her at, or if anyone else would like to take a look at my hay analysis and give your opinion, I would greatly appreciate it! I attached a PDF of it to my case history folder.
-- Emma Hanson Southwest Wisconsin, USA Joined 2020 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emma%20and%20Shadoh Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252728&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0 |
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Re: Thoughts on laminitis episode for Canadian mare
Sherry Morse
Hi Pat, Do you know how much the 3 flakes weigh? At this point we're really more concerned with the weight than the number of flakes.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Re: Dried Oak Leaves - Donkeys
Sherry Morse
Hi Philippa, A quick search of the Google says leaves can be dangerous to all species of animals: Oak buds in the spring and green acorn hulls in the fall cause oak poisoning in horses. Oak toxins are highest in:
https://news.vet.tufts.edu/2018/09/ask-the-expert-the-truth-about-acorn-toxicity/: Oak (Quercus species) toxicity in horses is
not common. While most portions of the oak tree; blossoms, buds,
leaves, stems, and acorns can be toxic, horses are often not affected
because it requires eating a large amount of oak leaves or acorns to
show clinical signs. Other resources: http://www.horsedvm.com/poisonous/oak-tree/
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Re: Thoughts on laminitis episode for Canadian mare
Maybe I should move her sooner? Her planned stall not available but a small one is available now.
-- Pat August 2020 Metro Vancouver BC Canada Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325 |
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Re: Thoughts on laminitis episode for Canadian mare
Actually I have dropped her to 3 flakes per day of timothy and she has been entirely prevented from going on grass for two weeks. I may not have put that into the history....
I'm adjusting supplements as suggested above. She's on full board 35 mins away, so unfortunately I cannot soak her hay. She is moving to a barn that has tested hay sometime in the next 2 weeks. -- Pat August 2020 Metro Vancouver BC Canada Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325 |
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Re: UK bloodwork results help for Red and Kim
Sherry Morse
Hi Kim, Do you know if those bloodwork results were fasting or non-fasting? As far as the ACTH - that is a high result even given that we are in the midst of the seasonal rise and one that I would be concerned about, even if the vet is not. You can read more about the Liphook range here: https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Seasonal-Changes-in-ACTH-Secretion2.pdf For the insulin - the conversion from miu/l to pmol/l give a result of 15 pmol/l for insulin which (unless I've totally mucked up the calculations) indicates that Red is not IR, but he is PPID as per the ACTH test so that is something that should be addressed. I would also be concerned about the alignment of the bony column in the
xray that you were able to share - there are definitely some trim
changes that can help with that but I'm going to leave it to Lavinia to
explain those.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony
Sherry Morse
Hi Victoria, The bute will not help a metabolic laminitis so you can probably taper down as Kirsten already outlined or if she hasn't gotten any bute since she wasn't eating it you can probably just stop it. Not sure if the gabapentin will do anything for her either.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Dried Oak Leaves - Donkeys
Philippa <10wilson.p@...>
Hi
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Re: Thoughts on laminitis episode for Canadian mare
Sherry Morse
Hi Pat, While Willow is very cute there is definitely a bit too much of her to love. If her current weight is 1200 her ideal is probably closer to 1100 (or less). Based on that she should be eating no more than 22 pounds TOTAL per day - including hay and concentrates. You can read the diet section of the website for information on this - https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diet.php. You have her current intake listed as 25 - 30 pounds of hay a day and she appears to still be out on grass for some period of time as well. At this point, until she's lost weight and her feet issues are resolved, the best thing you can do for her is get her into a dry lot or she needs to wear a completely closed muzzle when she is turned out and obviously this should only be for very short periods of time as she'll need to be able to drink which won't be possible with the closed muzzle. Then her hay needs to be weighed and she needs to be limited to the 22 pounds a day so she can start to safely lose weight. If the hay isn't tested please follow the information in the emergency diet and make sure it's soaked before being fed to her. Information on the bloodwork that you need to request from the vet is in the welcome email Kirsten already provided but I think it's a very good guess that she's IR and getting her diet and trim in order will go a long way to helping her feel better. Until she's had time to adjust to the new trim I would not be forcing her to do any exercise and there's nothing wrong with leaving her in boots so she's comfortable enough to move around on her own.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Re: WAS: Question for the Canadian folk / NOW: Lecia & Flyte's photo album
Great! Let us know when you have photos uploaded, then we will give you your next assignment (sneak peek: putting all of Flyte's case history information into one folder, and adding that link to your signature).
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Re: ALCAR questions
Jennifer Murphy
Thank you for responding; his dam was a miniature horse.
He's been pretty sore and slow for a long time, but maybe it was sore muscles. My vet is coming back in three weeks to do another round of blood work as he's finally eating his meals with the Metformin in them, I'll ask her what she thinks. -- Jennifer in NH 2020 CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0 |
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Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony
Good to hear!
Ideally you would taper off the NSAIDS so there is no rebound effect, which can increase pain. The jiaogulan and Devil's Claw can be started anytime, even while on NSAIDS. From our files: Start tapering by keeping the current dose the same but stretching out the intervals between doses. E.g.:START: 2 grams bute once a day
DAY 1 through 3 of Taper: 2 grams every 36 hours
DAY 4 through 6 of Taper: 2 grams every 48 hours
DAY 7: 1.5 grams every 48 hours
DAY 8: 1.0 gram every 48 hours
DAY 9: 0.5 gram once, then stop
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Re: UK bloodwork results help for Red and Kim
Hi Kim, thanks for updating it before posting! There is a place on the first page of the Case History where you can write the date it was updated, too.
The link for your Case History in your signature should be changed to: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Red Sounds like he is doing much better so I am happy for you! That ACTH is high. The thing with not treating it with pergolide is that PPID is a progressive condition, and has effects other than laminitis, like: compromised immune system, enhanced allergic reactions, muscle loss, increased soft tissue injuries, etc. I would think it warrants medication even if the insulin isn't elevated because of it, but maybe some of our more experienced volunteers or Dr Kellon can add their input on that, and on why the MIRG suggests IR but the rest of the bloodwork is normal. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony
Update- this morning she was more alert and evening standing a little better! Which is actually more confusing because I don't think she actually got any meds yesterday. Today I syringed the dissolved metformin, 2g bute paste, 2 gabapentin pills (force fed). This afternoon-still alert and moving around more! Farrier came to lower heels to relieve toe pressure. I noticed she is more curious about the timothy cubes and even had a few bites so it would be amazing if I can get her off of the hay so I know she's will be eating healthier. Still giving her soaked hay for now as well. She ate the thyrozine mixed with chia, ration balancer, 1000IU vit e, salt, turmeric. Then she got her pm dose of metformin. Should I skip the bute paste and gabapentin tonight? Thank you all for your help. Any other suggestions are appreciated!
-- Victoria Smithtown, NY 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pippa/Pippa%20Case%20History.pdf https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253218 |
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Re: Hemp Bedding
celestinefarm
It can get stuck if it is too small. Maybe increase the size of the "peas".. The idea with pea gravel is that Dr. Bowkers studies have shown it increases blood flow and hydraulic flow through the feet and allows the horse to position their feet where they are comfortable.
I believe Dr. Bowker's presentation to the ECIR group on this study is available to download at no charge. I don't have time to find it for you , maybe one of the mods can link. -- Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary Saline, MI 2003 Tipperary Case History |
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Re: Thoughts on laminitis episode for Canadian mare
Rhonda Turley
I too have a wonderful Canadian gelding. This group was a lifesaver for him. He foundered during the covid shutdown.. Canadians are known as easy keepers. I have many Canadian owners/breeders on my facebook page if you would like to talk to others. My gelding is now sound and back in light work. Follow the directions provided here for best results.
-- Rhonda Turley Brampton, Ontario April 2020 Scooter and Rhonda |
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Re: Question for the Canadian folk
Rhonda Turley
it took me several months to get my horse's case history. I had to nag, email, phone to get my vets to email me the actual results from testing.
-- Rhonda Turley Brampton, Ontario April 2020 Scooter and Rhonda |
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