I was told the same information from Uckele that they would not ship into Canada (even before Covid-19 hit).  Uckele told me that anything that goes in or on a horse they cannot ship across the Canadian border.  In order for me to get the supplements from Uckele, I had to drive across the US border and pick it up and then bring it through customs myself.  With the US border closed, I can no longer go and get the supplement.

I had contacted Mad Barn for my custom mineral blend but did not receive a reply (with apologies) for about 2 weeks. In the meantime, I contacted www.horsetech.com (in the USA) and they were able to ship the custom mineral blend to Canada no problem.  


--

 

Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

 

Hi Daisy,
I’m not entirely clear what you are doing differently but, since you state that you changed his work, I’m assuming it is a ridden exercise.  Do you get the same effect when you do the exercise from the ground?  Is it like a ‘carrot stretch‘, where they reach around to the side, or between their legs?
--

Hi Suzanne,

Can you share your source of this info ?
Thanks.

www.madbarn.com is a good Canadian company.....Mad Barn.
Free shipping.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Getting orders from Ukelele and My Best Horse is no longer possible with borders closed. Can anybody recommend some reputable Canadian horse supplement companies?
--

LJ,

He doesn't have to be on antibiotics just because he has a loose tooth. Dentists often recommend them for a few days before an extraction in case there is an abscess and they shake things up with the tooth removal but just having a loose tooth does not automatically mean infection. Long term antibiotics is not a good idea and long term half dose is even worse. You are inviting the development of resistant strains.

I don't see a problem with stopping the antibiotic at 2 weeks and just following him. If the tooth isn't loose enough to easily remove and the diagnosis of infection is not certain - which seems like your situation - no harm in just watching him.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Daisy,

Have any radiographs been done?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

I’ve only used pentosan. on my horses. I’m wondering if I should consider adding adequan or legend to the mix. Hoping to help Majestic get more comfortable with his ring bone and I always include jesse in the mix as he is older and I’d like to keep him comfortable. Any thoughts on what to use, how much to use and why? Thanks
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 

I have requested and submitted my info 3 times.  Jannalee Smithy will testify for me
--
Diann Kuzma
One Hoof at a Time
Medford, OR
Joined 2018

I am new to this group. I am trying to body clip my 25 year old gelding. Need advice on best clippers to use. I got 3/4 finished and my clippers just gave out  
help

--
Mark H in Tn. 2020

Hi Pat,

It's frustrating for sure.   But looking at your hay choices I am frankly quite envious, you have 3 options that are low sugar! (although I agree with the others and would choose option 2)

I just want to say, and I'm sure you know this, Dr Reeds Formula 2 is not a safe choice for Savannah especially as her insulin is so high and you are really battling with her trim and ongoing hoof issues.  I personally feel that it's better not to give it, than to feed it for the very little minerals it provides.  I haven't done the math with Formula 2, but I did feed Formula 1 for years (which IS low sugar) and after I took the NRC Plus course I found the only mineral of significance it was contributing to Shaku's diet was iron, a big no-no.  I suspect Formula 2 is similar: even if it's iron-free it is probably not helping with mineral deficiencies/imbalances, and it could be making things worse because the added sugar means it is not safe for horses with high insulin.  There are other choices for selenium, and maybe you can find another way to add zinc...I doubt there's enough zinc in Dr Reeds to help with a true deficiency anyways.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

The ECIR group has maintained that Vit C should be avoided in horses with IR due to the potential to increase iron overload. However, we know that Vit C in horses with "heaves" is low and is often recommended along with supplementation to support easier breathing in those horses. Lung EQ contains 1,000 mgs of Vit C and is on the ECIR friendly list at Uckele.
The new Tendon EQ from Uckele also contains 1,000mg's of Vit C and although it is not currently on the ECIR friendly list, it has been discussed here for those ECIR horses with DSLD and who are at risk due to ACTH levels. 

Cheryl, Vit C like anything else you give your horse, you need to know why you are giving your horse a supplement and the reason/science behind it.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

And I was also curious if there's a reason why the insulin re-test would be more than double from blood drawn on a morning he'd had pasture only (no TC senior meal, alfalfa, hauling or exercise the night before or that morning)? 

It appears that your pasture was higher in sugar at that time than his alfalfa and TC senior meal.  If he was getting less exercise around the time of the second draw you might also expect higher insulin, too, because exercise actually lowers insulin.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

Thank you, Cindy. Just wondering if there is a difference for daily use versus a single dose for vaccination reactions. 

I updated my case history to address your questions. His boots are padded, with the hay average CA trace works well to balance traces. Could be better on calcium, but he is a picky eater, so it was a fight I was not willing to have. Will try again. I use Mg Carb over Mg Ox, as soil and roughage sources are high in iron in my area. I want to avoid the iron from the Mg Ox. It was a recommendation I received from Dr. K way back.


--
Mara
NJ
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mara%20and%20Enzo

LJ, my almost 40 year old Cushings horse, frequently had loose teeth.  His dentist would work with the planes until the tooth was almost horizontal, and had calcified at the bottoms as they tipped a bit, and until they were loose enough to remove in a dental exam, he left them.   (Sure there might have been instances where surgery would have been the answer, but not just 'a loose tooth')

Removing molars surgically would have left gaps, and the teeth to either side would loose their 'support'. 

Months before 40, he still had at least half of his teeth. 

BUT, his diet at that point was 100% ODTBCubes, hydrated.  And as a pasture pet, and 1000#, he got more than your feeding Jesse. 
--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History

Hi Pat,
I  understand.  I am one of those ‘older members’ myself and in the beginning LeeAnne helped me as well.  The policy now is that members must do their own uploading, lest they lose access to the data.  I know you’ve helped others in the past.  Maybe they would be willing to return the favor?  I can certainly help out with guidance.  

Another thought is that, while most of us aren’t looking for more ways to spend money, especially with our ‘needy’ horses, it may be that you could justify purchasing a computer or tablet if you designated it as ‘barn equipment‘?  I purchased an ‘inexpensive’ PC laptop on sale from Costco last year because I am a Mac person.  It’s been years since I used a PC and I wanted to become more comfortable with one.  I’m not sure I have achieved that goal but at least I can open it up and give more appropriate advice.  

Your phone will do everything you need it to; it’s just hard to see what you’ve done because of its size.

--

Hi Jennifer

1) You can install free software that allows you to edit Word documents. One popular choice is Openoffice by Apache: https://www.openoffice.org/download/common/instructions.html
Choosing default or recommended settings/options in the installation process will work fine. If you are unsure, let us know what version of Windows you are using or if you are on another platform.

2) About your hay question, it depends. Even for grass trigger, it may not be so simple or immediate. Whether that thing you removed was the trigger or the only trigger, how much damage/physical change was caused already, maybe the equine was ticking along on the edge and now being pushed over, takes more to get things back on track - you did mention he was already on and off sore even before the hay change...  Below I will share with you our official welcome letter and it outlines the 4 main areas of the ECIR protocols - Diagnosis, Diet, Trim + Exercise (only if the horse is comfortable enough to do so). It provides a lot of information so take your time to go through it and also bookmark it so you can refer back again.

Are you feeding anything else besides the hay? Is he at or close to an ideal weight or is he over-condition? How old is he? I can see you are familiar with some aspects of the recommended diet but please read the section to see what else can be done. If in doubt, implement the Emergency Diet (details below) immediately anyway while waiting for your new hay test comes back (good job getting that underway). Once you get your case history done, it would be possible for volunteers or other members to have a look what else could be an issue.

3) You will be able to get a hoof assessment if you get good hoof pictures and label them to upload to request help on that https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1482#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help . In the meantime, try padding his feet with eva foam/yoga mat/styrofoam/ cut up saddle liner/easycare cloud pads/ easycare flat pads/ pads cut out of men's flip flops and making a duct tape boot to see if he finds more comfort. You may need to play around with different paddings to find what he likes best currently. Easycare cloud boots are a great comfort and rehab boot and come with the first pair of cloud pads. Bigger horses tend to crush down normal eva foam or yoga mat very quickly.

Feel free to ask questions if anything isn't clear. On to the promised letter:

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substitute adiponectin for the leptin test.

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

• low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
• low fat (4% or less) 
• mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. 

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.

--

Hi Everyone, 

I posted a little while ago about Con's recent laminitis episode however I have since had blood tests done and also updated my case history & photos to include Con's hoof x-rays. I'm hoping I have done it all correctly! : - ) 

Long story short - Con had his first laminitis episode in March this year. His routine at the time was: Turned out for 12 hours a day during the day into a 20 acre paddock to free graze then stabled at night with a hard feed and access to two biscuits of hay. This was his normal routine for six months prior to his first lami episode. The only change being that we had significant rain for approximately one week straight after a prolonged drought period before he pulled up lame. Vet attended to him and confirmed it was laminitis based on symptoms (bounding pulses, heat in all four feet, lame primarily in the front right, typical laminitis stance of leaning into the hind to alleviate pain in front). 

Treatment plan given to us from our vet was 1 x week of Bute twice a day and putting him in a dry lot to limit access to any grass. He was then x-rayed a week later and vet found no rotation of the coffin bone and commented that her only concern was his thin soles. Post x-rays, she advised best plan going forward would be to muzzle him at all times whilst he has access to grass (sighting the lush green grass as the cause of his laminitis) and to shoe him to treat his thin soles (We have chosen not to shoe and go down the barefoot route with a reputable trimmer in our area). We have since moved Con to a new agistment facility where he is turned out 24 hours a day. We initially muzzled him 24 hours a day for the first month which seemed to keep all of his laminitis symptoms at bay however in May he had his two front incisors removed due to an unrelated dental issue which meant we have not been able to muzzle him since. He has shown no lameness or other lamnitic symptoms since, other than a bounding pulse in his front feet which varies day to day. Some days the pulses may be bounding, other days they're barely palpable. Other times the pulse may be strong in the right with nothing in the left - Noting that there is no change to his day to day routine that would impact his pulses. 

To definitively rule out IR, we had a blood test done on Tuesday last week and I have uploaded the results to my case study file. I'm hoping that somebody could please review our recent blood test results and provide any necessary commentary (He is turned out 24 hours a day in an 18 acre grassy paddock with free access to a Rhodes hay round bale and was pulled out of the paddock right before the test) as well as review our hoof x-rays which we had done during his initial laminitis episode in March as advised above. 

If all signs point to Con not being IR, I am now a little bit lost as to the source of laminitis? Could it potentially have been due to the influx of rain that we had right before his episode which could have stirred up the nitrates / mycotoxins in the grass? Or could this all boil down to hoof integrity? Is anybody also able to confirm if bounding pulses are a strong indicator of a laminitc episode given that is the only symptom we have had consistently since his initial episode (no lameness / heat or any other issues since March).

Thanks for all of your help in advance!

--
Anjelica Robertson
Brisbane, Australia 
(Joined 2020)


Con Case History 
Con's Photos

I seem to be having difficulty with the case history form - I don't have Microsoft Word; is there another format I can upload?

I also have a question regarding hay.  I've seen in another post that if an equine seems to be starting a laminitic episode after grazing, once off grass entirely for 24 hours symptoms should subside.  Is the same true if hay might be a trigger?  I fed about 3 or 4 flakes over a 2 day period and noticed my mini started getting footsore.  I immediately took him off that hay and fed him only the old hay I had that was tested safe.  Five days later, he's still off.  Would the new hay have effected him for this long?
(I will add that the new hay was tested, came in at 8.9 ESC+starch, so I assumed it would be fine.  The older hay tested around 6.3.  I've always used test #601 from Equi-Analytical, but now see that was not the best choice.  I sent another sample last week to be tested using #603.  Also, my guy is currently on a round of Metformin as his insulin tested over 200 3 weeks ago, so he's been on and off sore to begin with.)
--
Jennifer in NH
2020

Hi Cheryl,

Vit C is generally not recommended because of its ability to increase iron absorption,which is not desirable.
Do a Vit C search in our Message Archives for numerous messages,if you like.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php