Date   

Re: Help with Foundering Mare - New Member

Lorna Cane
 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Hoof-Related-Photo-Instructions
Clickable link for hoof photos,Shannon.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Help with Foundering Mare - New Member

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Shannon,

Good that she's eating her hay.

Can you get pix of her feet ?
This is how......https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Hoof-Related-Photo-Instructions

I know you know the ACTH  results will be helpful, as soon as your vet gets back. Did you test glucose and insulin ?

If the cubes you reference are the Timothy Balance Cubes that's a good thing. Drinking is also good. Keep an eye on how many gallons she's drinking. Some horses appreciate warm water at this time of the year, although it's probably not that cold where you are.

For how long did she get Pergolide? And did you notice any difference in comfort level?
And is she still in her boots? Are they a good fit? No rubs?

Sorry for so many questions....if you can get hoof photos up for our hoof people, that will help . If she's lying down,this can still be done. You just have to get down with her for good angles, and put something under her hooves,on the shavings,in order to get the cleanest view.

Hopefully more advice will be forthcoming from others.
We know how hard it is for you to watch Lady J in pain.



--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Help with Foundering Mare - New Member

Shannon MacGillivray <shannon@...>
 

Hi

My mare is suffering and I don't know what more I can do...  I joined pretty much on her beginning her founder around Dec. 22.  My vet saw her Dec. 22 and 24th then went on holiday.  Though she tested Normal for an ACTH test on Oct. 28 he gave me Prascend to start which I did but then had to back the dose down.  She's been on the Emergency Diet, I've got her on Timothy grass hay, 8.8% sugar, 10.37% protein.  I've got her in a large box stall with 6" sawdust base with about a foot of shavings.  I had Renegade boots + pads on her but today switched to Soft Ride boots,she's also intermittently wearing Back on Track quick wraps to help increase circulation.  Trimmer has been to see her twice to nip back toes.  Since about Friday she went off her feed so no more Bute or supplements - I can barely get her to eat now and she looks to be in extreme pain.  Backed everything out except a little bit of salt and added some Timothy cubes tonight and she ate a bit.  She got a lot worse over last weekend, looks to have progressed to hinds now (vet said there is now a pulse in hinds). Vet came today and gave her an IV shot of Bute which seems to have had little effect.  She advised 2gs of Bute in the am (I have pills to try get into her), to back the Prascend down to a 1/4 pill again to help with her eating and ice / cold hose her feet.  She's eating her hay, drinking some, has started to lay down alot more with sometimes laboured breathing (vet confirmed higher heart rate but not terribly high) - laying down in the barn is a big deal this is the first time in my 4 years of owning her I've seen her lay in a stall. What more can I be doing for her?? I am beside myself watching her.  I updated her case study with most current.  Vet said no xrays until a month after this started so that is not until Jan. 22ish.  Vet also did not send me details on the ACTH test and he's away so I don't have that...

Thank you for any advice.
--
Shannon M & Lady J in BC 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Lady%20J


Dr. Kellon re Sunny - 2nd try - Invokana questions

richard
 

Hi, Dr. Kellon - I sent these questions yesterday, but they never appeared on the forum (I'm sure I hit "send", but...), so I'm trying again.  Since I haven't heard from you to the contrary, I guess Invokana is the next, & maybe last thing, we can try for Sunny.

1) Would it be appropriate/worthwhile to start with the 100mg pill or just go right to 300mg?
2) Should I start Invokana immediately after stopping Metformin (currently on 11,000mg twice per day)?
3) Should I give with food or before the 1st meal of the day (although I give her enough hay AM & PM that she usually has some left at the next feeding, so never really has an empty stomach)?
4) Any problems giving at the same meal as pergolide (currently controlled on 1.25mg compounded)?
5) How long should we wait before testing her insulin & glucose?
6) Would it be worth it to try ALCar to lower her insulin (consistantly over 200) or not bother & just go to Invokana?
7) Would it be appropriate to test her for iron overload?  I've balanced her meals for high iron (never outrageously high) & occassional high manganese (also never very high) for the last several years & recently had our well water tested for iron.  The result was "none detected".

Thanks in advance for your help.

Sue L. & Sunny
N. Calif.
2011


Re: How do I search on this site?

Amy
 

Thanks Nancy.
The link doesn't work but I'll do some searches.  
--
- Amy 10-2016

Mooresville, Indiana 

Stormy, Case History, Photo Album

 


Re: Muenster Milling and Extrusion Process

ferne fedeli
 

I drive about 5 hours round trip to get most of my feeds.  At least I can now get Stabul 1 from Chewy, so that is a bit of a help.  The store where I get most of my feeds was reluctant to carry the Timothy Balance Cubes at first and 3 years later, or whatever, it is a big seller for them.  The first month after they started selling it, the manager said I was sitll the only one buying it, but about 6 months later, I went to buy some and they were out of stock.  I went to talk to the manager and asked what was going on and he said I was right, it was becoming pretty popular and they were going to get more the next week (not making me too happy, as another 5 hour- trip!!!).  Anyway, just wanted to say how interesting it is that we are such gluttons for punishment for our adored critters!!!
--

Ferne Fedeli     2007

No. California
Case History

Regional Members Database Coordinator

 - see who is near you

Add your contact information if you want to help out/meet ECIR members in your area.

 


Re: How do I search on this site?

Nancy C
 
Edited

6:39pm   
On the search, just use a "+" sign between words.

And if you want to cut to the chase use posterid:58231

to jump to Kellon posts on the subject

Highly recommended. 


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Re: How do I search on this site?

Amy
 

Thanks to both of you.  I currently do weigh my hay and feed in a feeding net to eliminate waste and to allow for longer eating times.  

In regard to this.  Dr Kellon, can you advise how much I should feed?  I'll give this a try along with the Timothey balanced cubes to help stretch my hay. 

" Beet pulp is a great source of fiber and adding water through the winter. Dr. Kellon can help regarding just how much of your horse's hay diet can be replaced with beet pulp."

Thanks again.  
--
- Amy 10-2016

Mooresville, Indiana 

Stormy, Case History, Photo Album

 


Re: Muenster Milling and Extrusion Process

celestinefarm
 

Jennifer, I use FiberForce as a carrier for my horse's vit/mineral supplement. As it says in the article, it is used as a supplement to other Cavalor feeds and can provide a basis for horses who are IR to which their appropriate supplement is added. It was never designed to be a stand alone feed, i.e. their Strucomix Original, etc. It is too low in selenium, copper, zinc and magnesium. Rather, it is an adjunct to provide fiber and low s/s grains to a horse's current ration. It also lists a 6% fat content, which in the amounts I use , I am not concerned about. But it does rank above the ECIR cutoff of 4% fat. I don't know if that is why it is not on the recommended feed list here.
I first learned of it when Nicole Sicely, who owns Custom Equine Nutrition, suggested it as a carrier to customers in Vermont and I called the company and ordered a sample. My horses loved it and I went on a true adventure to buy it. I've worked with one of their sales/territory reps for the past three years who has gotten it into several stores, none of which are close to me, but are closer than Kentucky, LOL. I currently drive 3 hours round trip to pick it up from a store in Williamston Michigan. It is also available online via Hearty Pet. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: How do I search on this site?

celestinefarm
 

Amy, to search, click on the search button and type into the search box just one or two words of what you are looking for.  Sometimes putting the words in parenthesis will help.

But to answer your question, if you don't have enough baled hay until spring, then you can start adding hay cubes now.  The safest cubes are the Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes, as they are guaranteed to be below 10% S/S. I didn't look at your CH, but just guessing, if your horse needs 20#s of forage a day, then use four pounds of soaked cubes per day and only feed 16# of hay.( This is why ECIR strongly recommends everyone get a scale to weigh hay so you don't overfeed, underfeed, or waste hay) . Additionally, Green Meadow Equal Balance is available in any store that sells Kalmbach products  It is a chopped hay blend of timothy and orchard grass, with a misting of vegetable oil, and a very small amount of broken pellets of Vit E, A and D.  The manufacturer says it is below 10% , and one of our members here sent in a sample to be tested at Equi Analytical and it came back at 8.5% S/S with the starch at 4%. It's not guaranteed, but I'm currently adding it to my horses hay menu and they really like it. 
You can add soy hull pellets to replace a few pounds of your hay allotment per day, I wouldn't depend on them for more than just a few pounds per day. 
And don't forget beet pulp. Beet pulp is a great source of fiber and adding water through the winter. Dr. Kellon can help regarding just how much of your horse's hay diet can be replaced with beet pulp.  A pound of soaked beet pulp is a LOT of beet pulp as far as volume and it can help to fill a horse up. With all of the options I've listed, you can possible cut your horse's long stem baled hay down by 30 to 40%. You should feed that hay in some type of feeder to preserve as much as possible, so it doesn't get stepped on, dumped on, etc. 

There are few if any complete feeds that are suitable for an IR horse on the market, and the more you replace forage with pelleted feeds, the higher your chance of your horse starting wood chewing etc. But weighing hay and adding other forms of forage can make a big difference in making it to the end of the winter with hay still in the barn.


--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: How do I search on this site?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On the search, just use a "+" sign between words.

The best choice for your situation, where you will be feeding more than a handful or a pound, is Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes, also sold under the Triple Crown label as Naturals Timothy Balance.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: New Chase History & Photos uploaded - Request Opinions on BCS

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I agree his pictures look about BCS 6.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001


How do I search on this site?

Amy
 

I've always struggled to search here.  Trying to find some information on a supplemental feed that is ok for an IR/PPID horse.  I'm thinking I'll be very close to having enough hay until Spring.   Looking to see what else I can feed instead of hay to help stretch my hay out a bit.  

Of course, I have a very picky eater so wanted to do some research to see if I can find something that he will eat and again, help stretch my hay a bit longer.

Thanks 
--
- Amy 10-2016

Mooresville, Indiana 

Stormy, Case History, Photo Album

 


New Chase History & Photos uploaded - Request Opinions on BCS

Joanne Jordan
 

Hello ECIR,

I've been reading everything on the ECIR site and each and every message you've posted for the past 6 months. GREAT stuff here. I have a suspected IR gelding "Gusto" who is a 9 year old BLM mustang. We've been happily together for nearly 6 years.  In filling out Gusto's case history I get stuck at the question about body condition score (BCS).  After studying the BCS examples, I'd give him a "6".  Would love to hear your opinion!  This seems important that I get it correctly as hay amounts may need to be adjusted.  Thanks so much.
--
Joanne Jordan in Olympia, WA 2019
Gusto case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joanne%20and%20Gusto
Gusto photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=237686 


Re: understanding seasonal rise

Cindy M
 

https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Seasonal-Changes-in-ACTH-Secretion2.pdf

This is the website for Liphook Equine Hospital. 

http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ppid-faq/acth-interpretation  and this is The Laminitis Site . org. Sadly, they don't have a security certificate on their site. My phone gives me a warning if I try to access the site. My desktop does not have a problem with it.

The original chart came from there.  If you go to the Liphook page, you will see the connection of the charts, showing the original "cutoff values," chart from Copas & Durham, 2012. Then the newer info from Durham, 2016, showing revised cutoff values for ACTH, by week. It shows the seasonal rise, and helps me determine what is "normal" seasonal rise, versus the exaggerated rise my PPID horses experience.

That is all. I just needed to look at it and get a grip on levels, especially because I have two borderline horses.

If it's not helpful folks can just ignore it.
--
Cindy Martin
Nov 2009
Lincoln, AR
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20M%20and%20Grace%20-%20Burley%20-%20Reuban%20-%20Scout


Re: Favorite herbal for horses

jessica skene
 

Thanks guys!

my vet is looking for the pricing of the test I want and will come back soon with that. 

he was surprised, I think I am the first one to ask for t3, t4, LH, FSH, progesterone, feritin, etc
they need to be sent to US lab as no one are doing that here.
with the pricing I will be able to make planning to determine what I will do test and when!

in the meanwhile, my mare is doing super good! Back normal with no visible outside sign of laminitis (not even a stess line yet) I will continue to look but I hope she just got a bit cold in her feet but not much internal damage!
I did forgot to raise her jherb when cold snapped... 1/2 tbs more did all the difference with 1/2 tsp of AAKG more!
will put a big note for next year 😅
--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and Laminitis, IR / EMS

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory2019.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf


Re: Sweet P meds second request

 

Have patience, please.  I helped Kathie muddle through getting case histories uploaded and I apparently did more than my share of the muddling.  We are working on straightening things up.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Muenster Milling and Extrusion Process

aphena89@...
 



Thanks everyone! Very interesting about the extrusion process. I was wondering if it was only marketing hype but it does sound beneficial if used in conjunction with lower starch ingredients. I've requested the iron and starch levels from Muenster but I doubt it will be feasible as the lowest NSC formula is a high fat (30%). I'm currently using Stabul 1 (from Chewy.com) but I'm looking for something available locally and a bit more palatable to mask the minerals.
There is a Cavalor dealer about 30 minutes away so might give it a try. It looks like Fiberforce does have higher iron levels than the Stabul 1 based on the members analysis I've found in the files. I don't see that it has been added to the list of safe feeds yet in the files section btw.965


On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 09:56 AM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
http://www.cavalor.com/us-en/where-to-buy/locations

 
--
Jennifer Teis
Austin, TX, USA
Joined 2019


Re: Cold weather and insulin

Tanna
 

Thank you Nancy and Sherry

Fortunately I think the chances of my own horse having issues is fairly minimal (knock on wood) but we're in a boarding situation and I like to watch out for signs of trouble in others.

This is all good info to keep in mind. :)

--
Tanna 

April 2019, (Yahoo Group member 2008)
Langley, BC, Canada

Tula's Case History 


Re: Cold weather and insulin

Nancy C
 

You're welcome, Tanna

I defer to Dr Kellon on this, but where I can, more answers below

From the 2015 conference: 
Winter laminitis may be defined as bilateral front hoof pain that develops during the cold months in horses with a history of IR, with or without Cushing’s, with typically no obvious precipitating event.
I suppose there is a possibility (?) of a non IR, horse who has a history of terrible feet and mechanical damage contributing to reduced blood flow to the hoof, to experience pain but is this typically a condition that effects a horse with IR only? Dr. K indicates in her proceedings that a "normal horse" with "normal circulation" can adapt to the cold... "normal" being non IR?

My understanding at the moment is that "normal' is non-IR.  A horse with "terrible feet" could have them from unrecognized high insulin and therefore might have Winter Laminitis. In teh main our experience has been that horses with winter laminitis have metabolic issues, eg., high insulin, but may not have had an actual laminitis attack.

Also, in reference to the study: 

The ECIR Group winter laminitis APF trial used 10 horses with a history of winter laminitis not controlled by blanketing, wraps, and boots. The basic Diagnosis, Diet and Trim (DDT) protocol was in place. ACTH was controlled in PPID subjects. The diet was IR appropriate. Hoof form was appropriate. All of these horses had their hoof pain eliminated by using APF, 10 mls once or twice daily.
The power of APF is pretty awesome!

Indeed.

For those of us who do not have easy access to APF is there a specific component of APF that helps most with this? In Canada, for example, I have found a lesser adaptogen (EnduraGin) which contains several of the same ingredients but at a lesser potency. I wonder if it would also help some?

I will bow to Dr Kellon re EnduraGin. If I could not get APF, I would try jiaogulan at an obvious dose that is making a difference in gum and tongue color.

Also, in theory, (sorry it's early) would hot water hosing of the lower limbs help in cases of acute pain?

Maybe but even in a well-heated barn, I'd be worried about blow back from the cold.  Keeping things even with wraps is what I have done successfully.  It was amazing how quickly they respond. 

OH -- No matter what, a bad trim may also be negatively affecting results, so make sure you are spot on there.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

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