Date   

Re: ir horse trying bare foot

Daisy Shepherd
 

seems to be what works best to control insulin issues plus diet and turn out( with muzzle ); monitor blood work 2 to 3x per year  for this assessment. thanks, daisy and tiko
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-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: ECIR Group - We can’t do it without you.

 


Re: ir horse trying bare foot

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Daisy,

If he's more comfortable in boots than completely barefoot there's nothing wrong with using boots all the time and absolutely use them when doing any sort of work including lunging as well as riding.



Re: Side effects of Prascend (replying to Martha) was Re: APF not working

Amy Veatch
 

Hi Tanna,
I don't recall either human friend of being on medication for their pit tumors. I think symptoms gradually progressed until surgery was the only option.

My understanding of the use of previous in PPID horses--limited to my own horses and reading--is the hope that it will reduce ACTH secretion and possibly maybe hopefully shrink the offending tumor as well. For me that's a pretty big incentive to try and persist with the Praescend as early as possible. I'm using APF with Max the mini but not Princess since she's already on Jiaogulan, which I understand is also an adaptogen. We are taking it slow, and so far aren't seeing the veil, but we're also only up to half a tablet. If you haven't stuck with the adaptogen, I personally would give it another try.

Dr. Kellon's response including perceived dizziness and bracing in the same thought sure made me think back to Princess's recent laminitis episode, though. When I first found her she was laying down in the pasture reluctant to stand. I persisted and was shocked at how she presented. I called the vet and was sure that she must have been exposed to a neurotoxin because I knew she was current on vaccines. The first thing the vet asked upon seeing her was if she was current on tetanus and SEE. Her entire back end was shaking, her abdominal muscles were periodically contracting and bracing, she couldn't seem to get her hind feet coordinated and under her and when she walked (which she actually wasn't particularly reluctant to do strangely enough), she wobbled and had her neck down like she was coming out of sedation. It almost looked like she might walk out of whatever was going on because she improved with walking. (At the time i wouldve sworn to you that there had to be a noxious weed lurking somewhere in my pasture.)

My vet palpated her from the neck back and found strong digital pulses in the hinds with weak pulses in the fronts. She had endocrinopathic laminitis in all 4 feet. I pulled her off pasture, soaked her hay, joined this group, and followed the recommendations to the letter. The laminitis in the hinds seemed more transient than the fronts, and she seemed to get comfortable back there quickly. By the next morning the vet was relieved to find the digital pulses had subsided.

My vet, farrier, and I agree that she couldn't possibly have recovered any better (altho I was certainly freaked out to the point I couldn't sleep or do simple math for a while there). Among lots and lots of reading I came across something written by a vet noting that hind foot laminitis can sometimes look like similar to exposure to a neurotoxin. It initially sure seemed like it in my case. In subsequent blood testing we learned that in addition to being IR, she also has PPID. After realizing the slow-burn nature of endocrinopathic laminitis, It has left me wondering how many times she may have experienced these symptoms less dramatically before it came to a head, so to speak. All of this is a very long way of saying that, in my limited experience only, symptoms that seem like they wouldn't have anything to do with laminitis can in fact have everything to do with laminitis, even when it seems like there's a sure outside cause  (like my mythical noxious weed 😊). I wish you all the best and can completely empathize with your bewilderment. It's been just over a month for me and I'm just coming out of the fog. --
Amy & Princess (12 year old KY Mtn Saddle mare) & Max (6 year old mini gelding) - both PPID/IR
Southeast TN, Joined 2019

Max:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Max
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=134444&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Princess:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Pincess

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=96097

 



Re: Not sure who to believe...

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Assuming the ACTH sample was not mishandled, that level at the peak of the rise confirms no PPID. It may still have been high enough to push her over the edge. The insulin level is abnormal.  Insulin is a moving target. "Normal" depends on the circumstances. For example, a pulse of 100 is normal for a cantering horse but not normal for standing around. Insulin of 27 is normal after a large grain meal but not after hay.

Radiographs show this has been going on much longer than September. The long toe puts traction on the weak laminae and pulls hoof wall and bone apart with every step. Sounds like you are making progress there but the repeat films will be important. If you can get good hoof photos up (see the Wiki) that will be helpful.

She may also have unresolved fluid/dead tissue collections that need to mobilize and drain - i.e. abscess. The periodic bute interferes with this. In addition to the emergency diet, I would start her on Jiaogulan (search Files). Most horses enjoy the taste.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: increased urination in ir horse

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Do you have a specific question?  In IR, increased urination only occurs if there is an abnormally high blood sugar.  In PPID, it can be seen as a consequence of the hormonal changes with or without high glucose.

Non-disease related causes are "psychogenic polydipsia" - horses that drink large amounts of water for no particular physical reason, high protein diets and high salt intake.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: increased urination in ir horse

 

Daisy, I’ve made this ‘mistake’ before.  If you don’t find what you want in the Files area, be sure to try your search in the Messages section.  You will usually find plenty of reading material there.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Logo's Case History: 
 


Re: Not sure who to believe...

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Christina,

27.8 pg/mL 9 - 35
Insulin  25.36 uIU/m

I wouldn't consider these number negative.
For example, some horses need the ACTH to be more mid range than this, even 20, in order to be controlled. Maybe Aleyna is one? Just wondering.
Also her insulin is high. We're looking for numbers under 10.
Was glucose tested?

Christina, sorry to ask, but can you put these numbers into your case history, in the blood work section? That way we can see all the pertinent information in one place, and make comparisons quickly as details are added.
Thanks.



--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002


 


Re: ir horse trying bare foot

Nancy C
 

Daisy,

In addition to Maxine's info, suggest have a look at Putting Metabolic Horses Back to Work.
https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-exercise.php

Totally agree that Dr Kellon's courses are a fabulous resource.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Re: Not sure who to believe...

joviss425@...
 

Morning, 
We are weighing her hay, she gets 15lbs.  Six lbs in the A.M, 3 lbs for lunch and 6 more at dinner.  The supplements are sprinkled on her soaked hay, only way she will eat them voluntarily.
--
Christina V
Tucson, AZ
2019
Case History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Christina%20and%20Aleyna

Photo
 


Re: Not sure who to believe...

joviss425@...
 

Thank you for your reply.  I have updated the case file and uploaded the lab result the vet gave me.  When the vet took blood I thought it was going to tell me more than yes or no.... I was thinking it would have all the values (CBC). 

Thank you for your feedback :)
--
Christina V
Tucson, AZ
2019
Case History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Christina%20and%20Aleyna

Photo
 


Re: increased urination in ir horse

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Daisy,

Increased urination is a symptom of IR. I'm sure you know this ,but do you have a question in particular?
I didn't check our files, but typing increased urination into the search box brought up many messages about increased urination. They might not answer the question you are thinking of,though.

--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002


 


Re: ir horse trying bare foot

Maxine McArthur
 

LJ, there is a short explanation on the main web page:
https://www.ecirhorse.org/physiology-insulin.php

Or for more in-depth exploration of the benefits of exercise and many other topics we cover on this forum, I recommend taking Dr Kellon's online course on Cushings and Insulin Resistance. I refer to the course material all the time. It really helps me to understand why the group recommends the protocols we do. 

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Haystack feed Timothy pellets

gypsylassie
 

LJ, there is a gmo alfalfa now that is Roundup ready, like Roundup ready corn and soybeans, so that the alfalfa fields can be sprayed for broadleaf weeds with Roundup. Otherwise, since alfalfa is a "broadleaf" plant, Roundup would kill it along with the weeds.   I'm not sure about grass hay though.  Since there are broadleaf herbicides that don't kill grass, I wouldn't think there would be the need for Roundup ready grass hay, but I don't know.  
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL 


Re: APF not working

Catherine Browne
 

Ok. Thanks Dr. Kellon!
--
Catherine

November 2015, Powhatan, Virginia

Woodstock Case History - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Catherine%20and%20Woodstock
Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=103797


Re: ir horse trying bare foot

LJ Friedman
 

Why is this his best defense for ir? Ie exercise?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


increased urination in ir horse

Daisy Shepherd
 

i know this info has been posted. i did look in files but no info came up.  can some one help. thank you, daisy and tiko
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-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


ir horse trying bare foot

Daisy Shepherd
 

hello, pulled shoes 5 days ago to try bare foot  still sore when hand walking over gravel, lunged today in soft footing went ok, have cavallo boots to use on trail, really needs to work as i have   found this is my best defense for his ir;  plan for xrays next wed to look at his soles to see if they are thick enough for bare foot,  how do i know how much to ask of him, arena work and boots are really hard for us. thank you daisy and tiko
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Haystack feed Timothy pellets

LJ Friedman
 

I did a comparison of both.  Though a test is just a snapshot in time as I buy 30 bags a month from different lot numbers
( Thank you LeeAnne. . Pdfs of these analyses, so perfectly organized, easy to find too)
protein.       Mtn sun. 12.2
                    Haystack 7.9
esc.            Mtn sun. 6.6
                   Haystack 7.1
starch.        Mtn sun .4
                    Haystack .2
iron.            Mtn sun 219
                   Haystack 435
thoughts on changing to haystack?their
bag says made using non gmo hay , whatever that means. 


--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Haystack feed Timothy pellets

LJ Friedman
 

Anyone using them.  My feed store delivered a shipment . I only use mtn sunrise. They sent haystack.  Website shows 1/4 inch Timothy pellets. My bag shows 1/2 inch nade  using non gmo hay.   Thoughts?
are their low carb products of any interest?  Ive read some previous posts.  Thanks 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos