Date   

Re: When to reduce Prascend?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jodi,

Certainly understand that finances play a role in what we can/can't do, whether we like it or not. Most people are in that same situation. Unfortunately, the seasonal rise period is not over, esp. for a PPID horse. In these horses, the rise can be a factor thru Dec and some may never drop back down to their previous levels so their pergolide (Prascend) dose won't be able to be lowered either.

If you are still chasing symptoms, that indicates his ACTH is still not properly controlled and he warrants an increase rather than a decrease in his dose. Need to have that discussion with your vet, howver.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Followup re: wt loss

freddelskutar@...
 

Hello ECIR and Jaini Clougher.  
I am following up on my concerns for Julie's weight loss and intermittent laminitis. I read the articles recommended by Jaini and became suspicious of my mare having polycystic ovaries as I had been suspicious of low grade laminitis symptoms during these times..(.or just my imagination?) So I booked an appt with my vet and she had an ultrasound on Sept 21st. She had to lightly sedate my mare for the procedure but said her one ovary had a large follicle of 4.5cm diameter and the other may have had more than one. We discussed her heat cycles but I could not say if she was regular since it is hard to tell when she is in heat. I did see an obvious heat cycle lasting 5 days this past August where she urinated excessively and was interested in my gelding on other side of fence.  But for the most part, she doesn't show much or I am just not that observant. Whereas my senior pony screams, kicks fence, and goes off feed when in estrus.

My vet had not heard of laminitis secondary to estrus issues. We discussed spaying costs and risks  but that is not a route I want to take. She could not really say my mare had polycystic ovaries but only that she will ovulate soon. 

My vet did not think she was terribly skinny either. She agreed to a 4/9 on Henneke but not a 3. Her teeth were checked but were fine.(They were filed in March last.) She thought her feet looked better than in March but we took lateral front rads anyway. There is improved sole depth under the coffin bone and about 2/3rd good connection. Stated L front 6 degrr rot..tip of CB to hoof wall was 2.8cm and sole depth from tip was 1.2cm. The R front had 7 deg rot with 3.4cm from CB to front wall and depth under CB at tip was 1.9cm. I did add these pictures to Julie's history. 

Her bloodwork from Idexx came back frim Sept 8th blook draw at 2pm (fed her hay nets at 8am so had small at feed left)...
Total T4=1.9 (range 1.0-3.8ug/dL)
Endogenous ACTH=15 (9-35pg/mL) and had been on 2.5 pergolide since Sept 1st. 
Glucose=5.1 (4.2-6.4mmol/L)
Insulin=17.3 (4.5-20uIU/ml) lowest it has been since 2016!!     I:G ratio =25  Updated in Case Hx.
 
An equine blood panrl was done on the 21st also.  CBC normal. All chemistries normal except low total protein.  Fibrinogen normal. A gastroscope was not recommended. 
 
My vet suggested oil to increase calories but I haven't started that yet. I have increased her Total amount of daily hay to 22 lbs (non soaked) and I have been seeing an kmptoved appetite for her supplements. Still leaves some in bucket but eating over half.  I am slowly weaning the Thyroxine, now st 3/4 scoop and she gets powdered Iodine(brand: The Source). I have been sneaking in the Mad Barn Visceral and Amino Trace Plus at low amounts and she is eating them better this week. I need to find a powdered source of Vit E but she gets a Tbsp salt and 1/2 flax. 

I took a rasp to her toes this week as she was holding up R front on occasion since vet visit and I felt confident in that I would not take off too much with my radiographic measurements. I really thought it was time to try get them back more as I have always been concerned about being too aggressive  It has been 3 days and she is moving around better landing heel first and no more standing with toes down.

She is looking comfortable but maybe I will cut her back to 20 lbs daily hay again as I am super worried about a relapse.  Any more thoughts? 

Delli and Julie
BC, Canada
3/2018

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Delli%20and%20Julie

Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=88389

 


Re: PPID driving IR and fluid(?) behind eyes?

Ro Sykes
 

Could this be glaucoma?
--
Rosalind  Sykes
France
joined2017


Re: When to reduce Prascend?

LJ Friedman
 

The rise isnt over for every horse. HAve you considered pergolide from a compounding pharmacy like Pethealth in Az?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


locked Re: McGregor, 2 yo thoroughbred

Fernando Vine
 

But if not laminitis then what? At least the current diagnosis is laminitis
--
Fernando, Santiago Chile, 2019


When to reduce Prascend?

jmc
 

Now that we are over the hump, so to speak, of the seasonal rise, for horses who have their dose increased during the rise, how do we know when to start reducing it? If there is a specific date, then what kind of symptoms should prompt reduction earlier?

Yankee started Prascend on 25 Aug, started at 1/4 tab, then kind of chased the rise, increasing by 1/4 each time is primary symptom - peeing - increased. He was at 1 tablet when an ACTH test was done on 3 September, his test came back at 82... Still chasing symptoms he is now at 1.5 tabs, but I stopped there. Vet prescribed 1 tab, so I want to reduce back to that and see how he does (finances have something to do with it as well, especially with the price increasing). I plan on having him retested in April.



--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386


All EMS Horses Have Laminitis.

Nancy C
 

I was working on press releases today and was reminded of this one by Dr Kellon from last March: All EMS Horses Have Laminitis.

Lots of food for thought and management. With recent discussions seem like a good time to review.

https://www.ecirhorse.org/news-story.php?id=27

There are several quick-read releases on the NEWS section of the ECIR website you may enjoy.

https://www.ecirhorse.org/news.php

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Re: Princess diagnosed with hind-hoof laminitis night before last

Nancy C
 
Edited

My concern is that folks will get the idea that this soak can replace testing and determining how much magnesium and other minerals are needed. I have heard this in other circles. Minerals need to be given orally.

The retrospective study Kathleen posted is pretty overwhelming that the amount of magnesium that is absorbed is minimal, if at all.

It's gotta be in dietary intake to best help our horses. Magnesium Oxide works fine for the vast majority of horses.

Amy -- glad she is doing better today.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Re: Princess diagnosed with hind-hoof laminitis night before last

Kate Triplett
 

Kathleen, best I can tell you is that is DOES work, and very effectively, on both horses and humans.

My husband had evil horrendous leg cramps for most of his adult life. After he began rubbing on the MAG oil (we make if from our own MAG Flake) the cramping essentially ceased - very rarely will he have a relapse, and that's if he "forgets" to do it a couple times a week. My own experience with splitting migraine due to my injured neck knotting up - and we are talking about a golf-ball knot right under the base of my skull - is that within half an hour of rubbing in the MAG solution to the affected area, the muscles let down and the pain subsides.

YMMV, but I know what works for us.
--
Kate and Bunny (Irish Draught broodmare "possibly" PPID) and Lacey (Irish Draught Sporthorse broodmare IR laminitis)
Homesick Angels Farm, WA USA
Joined August 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kate%20and%20Bunny
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kate%20and%20Lacey
Lacey feet image files  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95210
Bunny image files  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95239




Re: Wheat Germ - how much is OK in PPID?

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Jennifer,

Little devil is he!

Have you tried flax meal ....same idea, tiny sprinkles?
Or distillers grain ?

( sorry, don't know answer to your question )

--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002


 


Re: Max Amount if Beet Pulp

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There is no need to supplement above basic requirements with IR/PPID unless there is also intake of a goitrogen like nitrates. There should be no problem with supplementing the basic NRC requirement on top of whatever your base diet contains.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Wheat Germ - how much is OK in PPID?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Wheat germ is about 38% starch so it depends on what else he is eating with it and how much.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Foam in beet pulp?

Deb Walker
 

Thanks for the input everyone.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619


Wheat Germ - how much is OK in PPID?

jen@...
 

Cowboy will only eat his Emergency Diet well if I sprinkle Wheat Germ on it.  After he eats what’s sprinkled, he stops eating until I sprinkle more.   What would be the most wheat germ I should offer him total?  Is 1/4 C too much for a650lb 12.1h Welsh Pony?  

--
- Jennifer Haunschild
Sept 2019, Edmond, OK
Space Cowboy - 12.1h Welsh Pony:  PPID 

Space Cowboy Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Space%20Cowboy

 

Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/Casehistory/album?id=96011

 


Re: Max Amount if Beet Pulp

 

Is there any reason a vet would disagree with iodine supplementation in the case, other than if intake is in excess of needs?

Confirmed dietary intake is TBD. If minimal needs are being met per NRC guidelines, is it still recommended to supplement for IR/PPID? If so, to reach what intake? Ideal weight is approx 432 kg.


--
Amber, Calliber and now Marquise
Upstate SC
Joined in 2019

NRCPlus Jan 2019
CIR 2019
DEW 2019

Calliber Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Calliber ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Calliber )
Calliber Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=82557 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=82557 )

Marquise's Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Marquise
Marquise's Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91447


Re: File on breeds prone to IR

Maria Duran
 

It would be great to have that list if possible Nancy! 😊
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


Re: Cyproheptadine

Maria Duran
 

Thank you very much Nancy and thanks for sharing your experience, it is of much help. I need to be full of reasons just in case something goes wrong and they suggest trying Cypro 
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


locked Re: McGregor, 2 yo thoroughbred

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

In that case there is no radiographic evidence of laminitis. I would get the additional radiographic views.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: File on breeds prone to IR

kguest@...
 

I live in Prince George and have two younger IR horses--one an-IR prone breed (a lipizzan) and one not (a QH/WB cross who got laminitis as a 4 year old the minute he stopped growing). So I think choosing for this would not necessarily preclude it being a factor. I also have a TB, a paint, and two WBs who got  trickier to manage as they aged. Paint and WBs became PPID  and intolerant of pasture even when on appropriate pergolide, TB was tested and while not PPID seems not to handle grass well anymore. I currently have *1* older horse (an appendix QH) who does not need to be on the dry lot and a yearling who will be moving to the dry lot as a 3 year old (a lipizzan).

--


Kristen and Jasper, Prince George BC
December 2016
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kristen%20and%20Jasper .
Jasper Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346 .


Re: PPID driving IR and fluid(?) behind eyes?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Instead of a Prascend trial at this point I think a TRH stimulation in December would be more informative.

Not sure what the eye issue is but it's not PPID related.

Unfortunately, the sedation will make your lab results impossible to interpret.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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