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Shannon Chastain
Missouri
June 2010

Hi Shannon,

Hair testing will give you information about things that happened in the past. Not useful for figuring out mineral supplementation. Have a read in the files here:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Hair%20Analysis/Hair%20Mineral%20Excerpt.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Hair%20Analysis/The%20Value%20of%20Blood,%20Hair%20and%20Hay%20Testing.pdf

Here's the link to the entire file:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/filessearch?o=0&q=hair+testing

You can also search the message archives as this topic comes up fairly frequently. Here's a link to the search I just did for "hair testing":

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/search?q=%22hair+testing%22

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Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team

Santa Cruz Animal Health.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team

From my experience, the type of feeder that works well will depend to some extent upon the horse. For years, I have fed my six horses in Nibblenets at shoulder level and felt that everything was OK. Then I had a couple of Welsh Cobs who were vigorous eaters!  They liked to flip and bang the hay nets to get the hay to drop out - now most of my horses will do that to a certain extent, but the cobs were extra enthusiastic. After a while, I noticed a certain stiffness in their necks when I rode them. I started feeding them hay loose on the ground and the stiffness completely went away. As an aside, I also had Appaloosa mare that wore her teeth on the tips which we attributed to the way she pulled the hay out of the webbing Nibblenets.  And I had another Welsh Cob that I fed in a Porta-Grazer who developed a callous on her nose from attacking the feeder too hard!  This year, after all my horses came in from grass to dry paddocks for the year, I have been feeding the hay in multiple small piles on the ground around their paddocks. It simulates grazing, but the trade-off is that they finish faster.  I do a little  hay on the ground and some in a Nibblenet for my IR mare as a compromise.  I'm not sure what I will do when winter weather comes, but I'm reluctant to use the hung Nibblenets with my cobs again. Nibblenets do make nets that can be put on the ground so horses can eat in a grazing position. I'm not sure I trust the cobs with those either!
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Annette and Alley
October 2018, Moscow, Idaho
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Alley%20Case%20History.pages.pdf .
Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78421  .

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Shannon Chastain
Missouri
June 2010

-- Sarah! That was soooo informative for me! I'm moving to a place of my own very soon and want to do what you are doing for my two horses (one being "IR, Cushings, COPD and DSLD). I'm in an apartment with horse facilities right now and can't control her environment. Thank you again! 😁
Deirdre O'Malley 
Raleigh, North Carolina
Joined Group: 6/27/16 
Horse:  KESA, Spanish Mustang mare, 20 yes old
PPID, IR, DSLD

The only thing that has been investigated as far as I know is the effect of head position on the clearance of mucus and lung secretions. This is improved if the top of the trachea at throat level is lower than the thoracic inlet located midchest at the level where the trachea turns to enter the chest - i.e. bottom of the neck.  However, horses also doze in a head down position and root around in a head down position. There are no studies showing effects of eating position only. Problems have only been seen were horses are tied in head up position for long periods - e.g. cross-tied versus head loose on long trips.

Hay bags restrict intake better once the holes are small enough. They can be secured inside tires, inside tubs on the ground or bath tubs, etc.
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Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Tara,
Reed Canarygrass is considered an invasive here in Michigan, and so farmers are encouraged to eradicate it when possible.  I don't have any experience with it, but google searching yielded just one article from KER on it's use as a hay vs. Timothy. Unfortunately, they didn't include any info on ESC and Starch, mainly protein. calcium, etc.  Since it is a reed type of grass, spread by rhizomes, the issue would be as Julie pointed out, if it has heads on it with seeds. Also, the article stated it is not as palatable to horses as other grasses such as timothy. 
https://ker.com/equinews/reed-canarygrass-timothy-compared-horse-feeds/

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Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

Hi Tara

Just want to provide some links to information that may help you in the future.  This is a good source of information. https://www.feedipedia.org/node/391

The above link also speaks to the toxicity issues.

I would want to determine that we are speaking to exactly the same grass, even if stated by the grower that this is Canary grass. Checking with the forage specialist of the University Extension Service at U Mass, would be a good place to start to absolutely determine what you are speaking about and hear about issues in your area.

https://ag.umass.edu/crops-dairy-livestock-equine

How much is in your hay is also likely a very big conditional. Determining that would be helpful.

If after doing your research you are still unsure, then always err on the side of caution.

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Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

Daisy,

With the large plaques of edema I would try the Pentosan injection. Also see https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/filessearch?q=pentosan
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Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

I see multiple recommendations for hay nets vice the PortaGrazers.  Can anyone speak, factually, to the validity of claims that the position and motion of having the horse eat at shoulder level from nets vice at ground level (head lowered as if grazing) is harmful to the horse?  I haven't seen any studies to support it, but I've seen the claims from more than one source.  Thank you!
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- Julie Thomas
September 2018, Seabeck, WA
Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky  .
Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042  .
Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044  .

who is sca? thanks, daisy and tiko
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-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0

On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 11:10 PM, Deb Walker wrote:

I am so happy that he is willing to grasp your ideas and thoughts. And he and Scotty are getting along so well!!!

I want to emphasize that the trim approach we recommend, basically an anatomically correct realigning trim, is anything but new. It was the standard of care when I went to school 45 years ago and didn't start there.
 
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Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Everything on wet chem .analysis tested well for safety to consume but is it safe to eat if mixed in with Timothy and orchard all mixed in these bales .I read not good things on the reed canary ..it can cause sudden death ,many drawbacks from the alkaloids I think they stated.  Do I throw these bales away or can they eat them.  Everything in the bales is very green and soft ..I saw purplish seed heads that's what made me quest what it was ..can they die from this stuff ?
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Tara and Gavilon
Mass.  Nov 2017
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tara%20and%20Gavilon

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=11449

Changes in the immune system of horses with EMS are not well described.  The focus for a long time was on trying to draw parallels with what is seen in humans and mice with MS - an increase in levels of circulating inflammatory cytokines. It turns out this was not the case with horses.

What has been found is an increase in the response of neutrophils to a challenge, the "oxidative burst" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22169327 .  These are the cells that shoot first and ask questions later. The hyperresponsiveness shown could account for things like exaggerated bug bite reactions.  Antihistamines may help some horses since histamine release may be part of the process but it isn't necessarily a true allergy.  Severity does correlate with how high the insulin is.

You'll find the best way to battle this is by supporting the horse's own antioxidant defenses with adequate flax, vitamin E, magnesium and balanced trace minerals. The benefits become more obvious over time. If that is not enough, plant antioxidants like Phyto-Quench https://uckele.com/phyto-quench-powder.html can make a big difference.

Do NOT treat with corticosteroids. If the reaction is severe you could try an injection of Pentosan, same dose as for joints, although this is more focused on allergic-type reactions and you may or may not have an allergic component.
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Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

I don't separate them anymore.  When I was putting Sparky's 3lbs where Ike could not get to it, Sparky would "help" Ike eat his, then go eat his own (smart little stinker).  As a mini, Sparky gains weight easily, so that just shifted the issue.  You'd think Ike would have lost weight this way...but he didn't.

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- Julie Thomas
September 2018, Seabeck, WA 
Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky  .
Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042  .
Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044  .

A non-grass track system was started here for  my Beau about 2004-2005. While not formal exercise, the benefit of keeping them moving and interested through the use of a track system is well reported. I live in a temperate climate rain forest.  It takes work to keep it grass-free.

In my experience, and in watching the many experiences of others here, Cass and Lavina are right on the money in their remarks and observations.  If you want to review them here are the links to their comments:

Lavinia - https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/240989
Cass - https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/240995
#240995#240995#240995 #240995 #2409

Like Sarah -- who presented the benefits of her work on soil improvement at the 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference -- my grower and I have worked hard to improve soil for our hay crop.  Same with pasture that my non EMS horses. Attending to the soil to get a better crop works.

The ECIR goal  is zero laminitis. In the equine world, monitoring signs for problems have been described as checking eye fat, the cresty neck score, other fat pads, rings in the feet, poor behavior, etc. The problem with monitoring signs of EMS to determine if your horse is getting too much grass, is that they appear after potential damage to lamina has taken place. 

Laminitis is an insidious event.  It builds over time. Add to this assault of high insulin, a poor hoof form and you have  a recipe for disaster.  Reaction to a vaccination, grazing just a little too long, change in work load without change of dietary intake, and similar events can then push this build up over the edge.

Dr. Kellon and Dr. Bowker speak to this in their 2017 NO Laminitis! Proceedings:

Endocrinopathic Laminitis: How is it Different? - Kellon
Understanding Laminitis: How We View Normal - Bowker

You can get both here for free https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2017.php

There are many great additional proceedings on the ECIR web site. Download is free.

Looking forward to more great information in Harrisburgh 2020 - NO Laminitisi! Hope to see you again, Sarah, and many, many of you.  It's great time.
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Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

Hi Tara. The reed canary grass I am familiar with is very tall, 4 or 5 feet, and has very thick stalks, up to 1/2 inch .  The heads on it have loose strands with the small seeds at the end. My horses eat the top part  but leave these thick stalks in their feeders. Wasting it. This grass likes to grow in lower, wetter areas in fields and I have seen side leaves that have a purplish tinge to them.
I purchased this grass hay in round bales last year. The grower called "low lying meadow grass" and it was heavy to reed canary and had an elevated in WSC 15%, low protein at 8% and ESC was in 6's and 1.4 of starch.  I did not feed to my IR horse but okay for the rest that could chew it. Hope this helps. 
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Delli and Julie
BC, Canada
3/2018

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Delli%20and%20Julie

Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=88389

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Thanks,
Kandice and TWH Mare  Bunny
North Central TX  joined 2/19

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandice%20and%20Bunny

I have used Benadryl for severe hives due to bug bites. Lots of messages about this in the archives. Most effective is to start before the hives appear.  Once the system is inflamed it's harder to get control. Skip (now PPID) has been on Benadryl as long as March through October.

This year we used maximum amounts of chondroitin and spirulina, through that period of time.  It worked well even with the biblical invasion of bugs this year. He was also diagnosed with PPID adn treated which made a noticable immediate difference.

IME - It's not the high insulin from EMS that is the problem for many horses.  Some are just tuned that way.  Uncontrolled PPID definitely make it worse.
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Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA