Hi Maria

Here is the list of choices you will see in the new CH that we have based on what we have seen here,  and discussion with the CH committee. For simplicity sake, we did not list all variations of breeds, eg., Anglo-Arab, Brazilian QH, Mexican vs American Aztecas, etc.  

Side bar:  When we roll out the new CH, You will be able to indicate cross breeds.  This is just the basic list.

Included here are breeds that typically do not have IR unless PPID is out of control. (See those marked **) We generalized warmbloods and fullsized drafts , because they typically do not suffered from IR at baseline.  Draft ponies, however do so they are listed by breed. Many of the list do not (like QH, TB, Standardbred), but only through uncontrolled PPID.

So it's a mixed list. Does that make sense? There may be breeds we see pop up on an individual basis. If we get a dozen new reports of xyz breed not listed, we can add them to the list.

Hope this helps and not just confuse you.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

“I feed him in a tub and he flips it over! Any suggestions?”

Nail the tub to the ground. Use a drill to make a hole, and then use a 10-inch spike which you can get at the hardware store.

Cindy

--
Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125

Hi Kirsten,

Maybe I am wrong but to my knowledge 100% of NRC for iodine is fine as iodine is very well absorbed and doesn´t has other mineral competences. Is your hay very low in iodine? I believe if you don´t have a nitrate problem or other goitrogens in the diet, 100% NRC is fine. Check that you have good Se levels too. Here in Spain kelp is used to feed more iodine but don´t know if it is safe for IR horses and be careful because the iodine content is very high.


--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

my vet is reviewing the proceedings this weekend and she is coming out tomorrow for an in-house glucose test :) 
Im hoping she will be agreeable to increasing his pergolide!
I will keep you posted. Thank you!
--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655

Hi Kate,

To be clear, I'm not discounting your personal experience. Our role is to communicate to the members here the best scientific evidence we know to be true. e.g., "Members and volunteers work to be clear as to solid scientific or medical evidence versus personal theory, observation, or experience in case-by-case support." Currently, there is not enough scientific or medical evidence (or physiologic explanation; there are no magnesium transporters in skin) to support transdermal therapy over oral. There is some evidence that magnesium can be absorbed through hair follicles and/or sweat glands - the horse may have an advantage over humans in this department - but it's pure speculation. There are no studies in horses

The point is that we (ECIR group), have an obligation to readers to point out that this is your personal experience and that there are no studies in horses to showing the effectiveness of transdermal magnesium therapy. If owners want to try it, there is probably no harm, but it should not replace oral dietary supplementation. I know you didn't suggest this, but you'd be surprised how suggestions can get misinterpreted; note the two posts in just the amount of time it took me to write this.
--

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 

Hi Jodi,

Agree with Lavinia about the expenses.Something else to keep in mind is that if we don't keep the ACTH controlled, we may be facing much greater expenses involved in treating the laminitis that is likely to follow.
Then we have not only the added expense,but also the discomfort for the horse,and unhappy owner.

--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002

 

Hi Delli,

Good news that she seems more comfortable,and going in the right direction.
Good sneaking going on with her minerals!

Your comment on finding powdered Vitamin E caught my eye. A lot of us use vitamin E capsules,usually 400iu x whatever amount is needed, often 2000iu. They are easy to feed - most horses eat them- and the capsules contain oil,which is needed by the E to be more bioavailable. The powdered E should have oil added to it,when fed.
Costco has the best price I have found , in Ontario though. It goes on sale several times a year,which is even better.
Just a thought.

--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002

 

I’ve heard of towels being soaked in water that has magnesium in it and draping that on horse muscles.


--
Jane, South East Western Australia
Nov 2016
Garnet and Bill

Hi Jodi,

Certainly understand that finances play a role in what we can/can't do, whether we like it or not. Most people are in that same situation. Unfortunately, the seasonal rise period is not over, esp. for a PPID horse. In these horses, the rise can be a factor thru Dec and some may never drop back down to their previous levels so their pergolide (Prascend) dose won't be able to be lowered either.

If you are still chasing symptoms, that indicates his ACTH is still not properly controlled and he warrants an increase rather than a decrease in his dose. Need to have that discussion with your vet, howver.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team

I am following up on my concerns for Julie's weight loss and intermittent laminitis. I read the articles recommended by Jaini and became suspicious of my mare having polycystic ovaries as I had been suspicious of low grade laminitis symptoms during these times..(.or just my imagination?) So I booked an appt with my vet and she had an ultrasound on Sept 21st. She had to lightly sedate my mare for the procedure but said her one ovary had a large follicle of 4.5cm diameter and the other may have had more than one. We discussed her heat cycles but I could not say if she was regular since it is hard to tell when she is in heat. I did see an obvious heat cycle lasting 5 days this past August where she urinated excessively and was interested in my gelding on other side of fence.  But for the most part, she doesn't show much or I am just not that observant. Whereas my senior pony screams, kicks fence, and goes off feed when in estrus.

My vet had not heard of laminitis secondary to estrus issues. We discussed spaying costs and risks  but that is not a route I want to take. She could not really say my mare had polycystic ovaries but only that she will ovulate soon. 

My vet did not think she was terribly skinny either. She agreed to a 4/9 on Henneke but not a 3. Her teeth were checked but were fine.(They were filed in March last.) She thought her feet looked better than in March but we took lateral front rads anyway. There is improved sole depth under the coffin bone and about 2/3rd good connection. Stated L front 6 degrr rot..tip of CB to hoof wall was 2.8cm and sole depth from tip was 1.2cm. The R front had 7 deg rot with 3.4cm from CB to front wall and depth under CB at tip was 1.9cm. I did add these pictures to Julie's history. 

Her bloodwork from Idexx came back frim Sept 8th blook draw at 2pm (fed her hay nets at 8am so had small at feed left)...
Total T4=1.9 (range 1.0-3.8ug/dL)
Endogenous ACTH=15 (9-35pg/mL) and had been on 2.5 pergolide since Sept 1st. 
Glucose=5.1 (4.2-6.4mmol/L)
Insulin=17.3 (4.5-20uIU/ml) lowest it has been since 2016!!     I:G ratio =25  Updated in Case Hx.
 
An equine blood panrl was done on the 21st also.  CBC normal. All chemistries normal except low total protein.  Fibrinogen normal. A gastroscope was not recommended. 
 
My vet suggested oil to increase calories but I haven't started that yet. I have increased her Total amount of daily hay to 22 lbs (non soaked) and I have been seeing an kmptoved appetite for her supplements. Still leaves some in bucket but eating over half.  I am slowly weaning the Thyroxine, now st 3/4 scoop and she gets powdered Iodine(brand: The Source). I have been sneaking in the Mad Barn Visceral and Amino Trace Plus at low amounts and she is eating them better this week. I need to find a powdered source of Vit E but she gets a Tbsp salt and 1/2 flax. 

I took a rasp to her toes this week as she was holding up R front on occasion since vet visit and I felt confident in that I would not take off too much with my radiographic measurements. I really thought it was time to try get them back more as I have always been concerned about being too aggressive  It has been 3 days and she is moving around better landing heel first and no more standing with toes down.

She is looking comfortable but maybe I will cut her back to 20 lbs daily hay again as I am super worried about a relapse.  Any more thoughts? 

Delli and Julie
BC, Canada
3/2018

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Delli%20and%20Julie

Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=88389

Could this be glaucoma?
--
Rosalind  Sykes
France
joined2017

The rise isnt over for every horse. HAve you considered pergolide from a compounding pharmacy like Pethealth in Az?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 

But if not laminitis then what? At least the current diagnosis is laminitis

--
Fernando, Santiago Chile, 2019

Now that we are over the hump, so to speak, of the seasonal rise, for horses who have their dose increased during the rise, how do we know when to start reducing it? If there is a specific date, then what kind of symptoms should prompt reduction earlier?

Yankee started Prascend on 25 Aug, started at 1/4 tab, then kind of chased the rise, increasing by 1/4 each time is primary symptom - peeing - increased. He was at 1 tablet when an ACTH test was done on 3 September, his test came back at 82... Still chasing symptoms he is now at 1.5 tabs, but I stopped there. Vet prescribed 1 tab, so I want to reduce back to that and see how he does (finances have something to do with it as well, especially with the price increasing). I plan on having him retested in April.



--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386

I was working on press releases today and was reminded of this one by Dr Kellon from last March: All EMS Horses Have Laminitis.

Lots of food for thought and management. With recent discussions seem like a good time to review.

https://www.ecirhorse.org/news-story.php?id=27

There are several quick-read releases on the NEWS section of the ECIR website you may enjoy.

https://www.ecirhorse.org/news.php

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

My concern is that folks will get the idea that this soak can replace testing and determining how much magnesium and other minerals are needed. I have heard this in other circles. Minerals need to be given orally.

The retrospective study Kathleen posted is pretty overwhelming that the amount of magnesium that is absorbed is minimal, if at all.

It's gotta be in dietary intake to best help our horses. Magnesium Oxide works fine for the vast majority of horses.

Amy -- glad she is doing better today.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

Kathleen, best I can tell you is that is DOES work, and very effectively, on both horses and humans.

My husband had evil horrendous leg cramps for most of his adult life. After he began rubbing on the MAG oil (we make if from our own MAG Flake) the cramping essentially ceased - very rarely will he have a relapse, and that's if he "forgets" to do it a couple times a week. My own experience with splitting migraine due to my injured neck knotting up - and we are talking about a golf-ball knot right under the base of my skull - is that within half an hour of rubbing in the MAG solution to the affected area, the muscles let down and the pain subsides.

YMMV, but I know what works for us.
--
Kate and Bunny (Irish Draught broodmare "possibly" PPID) and Lacey (Irish Draught Sporthorse broodmare IR laminitis)
Homesick Angels Farm, WA USA
Joined August 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kate%20and%20Bunny
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kate%20and%20Lacey
Lacey feet image files  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95210
Bunny image files  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95239

Hi Jennifer,

Little devil is he!

Have you tried flax meal ....same idea, tiny sprinkles?
Or distillers grain ?

( sorry, don't know answer to your question )

--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002

 

There is no need to supplement above basic requirements with IR/PPID unless there is also intake of a goitrogen like nitrates. There should be no problem with supplementing the basic NRC requirement on top of whatever your base diet contains.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Wheat germ is about 38% starch so it depends on what else he is eating with it and how much.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001