Date   

Re: Sloughing Pix Posted

Sherry Morse
 

Thank you so much for sharing these again Lorna.  I don't know that I would have had the fortitude to continue with multiple horses going through this at the same time.  

Just out of curiosity - did you take pictures of Tod's hoof capsule after it came off?  *Or turn it into an ash tray? :-)*





Sloughing Pix Posted

Lorna Cane
 

I've posted 4 photos,in Photos.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/album?id=277531&p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C1%2C0%2C0

The first 2 are hard to look at . Drummer went through hell.He kept abscessing just as new growth was beginning to develop.The  recovery of the other 4 boys was text book. The next 2 are 2 different horses,after a couple of months of hooves regrowing.  New growth at top,old hoof below the crack.It eventually grew right down.The copper horse's old hoof came off in one piece.New growth was solid.
Trimming was frequent for all the boys.

--
Lorna in Eastern Ontario
2002


Re: Solar Penetration

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Nicolle,

I received the pix you sent privately. I was able to open them, but my email app has now frozen and I can't reply.

No it does not look good,but please add those pix to your album here,so that we have all eyes on them.

I will try to upload several from when my boys went through this as soon as I can.They looked every bit as horrible.I will include a couple after several months of growing new hoof.

I really can't offer any more advice at this point because it was 19 years ago for me.There will have been  improvements in treatment by now.
But I can say  that you need someone on the ground with you.  A vet? Your trimmer? Can Jenny visit? Lavinia and Dr. K. need to see the pix.
I need to add that cleanliness is really important. I used to use a bed sheet under my boy when I was changing dressings/bandages .

Please post the pix,and I'll do what I can with mine.


--
Lorna in Eastern Ontario
2002


Re: Cheapest Prascend

Tracy
 

I called my vet's office and asked if I could have the Prascend script called into WalmartPetRx.com - at the time the best online price I could find.  This was about a year or more ago.
To save the sale so to speak - she asked me if she could check about price matching if I let them fill it for me instead of going to an online place.
Sure.
She called back later that day and from then on they have reduced the price for me every time I order.  Usually they make it a close price to the online price with the $30 rebate kicking in to make it very close to the online price.  The rebate can come or go - but it's always been in place when I've needed to order.
They now have that in the computer and I don't have to keep asking for the better price.
It's not THE best price - but it's close enough to the online stuff that I feel ok getting it from my vet.

I HATE having to 'haggle' over price for an essential medicine that my horse needs because big pharma has hijacked a decades old compound to pad their pockets.
Vet is coming out this morning to pull blood to see if we need to increase Salsa up to 2 prascend a day - which makes me cringe.

Good luck to us all and I'm jealous of everyone that can get their hands on compounded pergolide - hopefully the price on that is still affordable for folks!

--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: Cheapest Prascend

Donna Coughlin
 

California Pet Pharmacy (californiapetpharmacy.com) is having a sitewide 12% off sale  now. My 160 tab box of Prascend was $312.39 (free shipping over $100). They are amazingly prompt to ship and the orders are easy to make; they work seamlessly with my vet, too. At 1 mg per day (1 tablet) dose for Robin, I found the price a year ago very close to compounded; you save lots more using compounded at higher doses--or that was true a year+ ago with Duke. I'm sure I heard about them years ago right here!

--
Donna Coughlin, Robin Goodfellow and Ariel Max; Duke (5/21) and Obi (5/17) over the Rainbow Bridge

CT 2009

 

 


Re: Hay, soaking hay, and hay quantity

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Marianne,

Welcome.  Just to add to Bobbie's excellent advice, with EMS horses we want to see the BCS at about 4.5-5, you might just barely be able to see ribs and you can very easily feel them.  If your horse is already at that condition, great!  You can feed 2% of current body weight, and adjust upwards or downwards if their condition changes.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: LaminaSaver

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

It's possible, as bute will control inflammation - which an abscess has. But in doing that, it keeps the abscess from "boiling over" and draining away.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Why an IR horse shouldn't have shoes on?

Amy
 

I seen a thread saying this with links and now I can't find it.  
Anyone have the links?
--
- Amy 10-2016

Mooresville, Indiana 

Stormy, Case History, Photo Album

 


Re: LaminaSaver

Lesley Bludworth
 

That would be great. Is that why she looks better on bute?



From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Lavinia Fiscaletti <shilohmom@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 7:55:28 PM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] LaminaSaver
 
Hi Lesley,

It's possible the J-herb is mobilizing abscesses, which can make her more painful until they drain.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


Re: LaminaSaver

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lesley,

It's possible the J-herb is mobilizing abscesses, which can make her more painful until they drain.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


locked Re: vet change in process

Bobbie Day
 

That’s frustrating LJ,
My young vet is pretty good about things but they’re swamped so I always have to call and remind her a couple times. That reminds me I haven’t gotten Maggie’s refill. Hope you are able to get it sorted out.

--

Bobbie and Maggie 
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) 
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020, NAT, C&IR March 2021
ECIR Group Primary Response 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


locked vet change in process

LJ Friedman
 

from vet
”--mary forwarded me the fax and it's a different base pharmacy than the last time. 
I am busy with appointmens and cannot call it in at the moment. 
In the future please give us 24-48 hours to fill your prescription. I am frequently off or unavailable throughout the day. Please plan accordingly. 
In addition, I do not recommend using pharmacies without proper certification, which this pharmacy does not have. I also do not recommend giving compounded pergolide. I must state this in writing in case this medication is fraudulent and causes harm to your horse. “

I asked for this prescription first thing in the morning. And I did not get it done until the next day.
This is the second time she sent me that warning alert. And I’ve simply had enough

Another doctor in her practice who now is retired, always gave a years worth of refills like every other doctor does. She gave to 60 day prescriptions and I thought the last one was a years worth of refills so poor majestic could’ve been without meds .but of course I know how to strategize.


It seems like the pharmacy called the doctor on call to get the refill. I didn’t ask for that. Do I care? Nope
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse( over the rainbow) and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: LaminaSaver

Lesley Bludworth
 

Yes, she started devils claw last week but I didn't know the Uckele version wasn't good for her.
I have the phytoquench with DC but I have to syringe it as She is not eating well and on omeprazole.
The uckele DC has yucca and apparently that's not good for her but its way easier to get in her. 


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Sherry Morse via groups.io <sherry_morse@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 4:13:31 PM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] LaminaSaver
 
Lesley,

How pink are her gums now compared to when you started the J-herb?  Has the trim been addressed since it was started?  If you're looking for pain relief our first suggestion is always Devil's Claw, not Jiaogulan. 




--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


Re: LaminaSaver

Sherry Morse
 

Lesley,

How pink are her gums now compared to when you started the J-herb?  Has the trim been addressed since it was started?  If you're looking for pain relief our first suggestion is always Devil's Claw, not Jiaogulan. 




Re: LaminaSaver

Lesley Bludworth
 

Sorry,
Im not debating which is better.
I just have some at the house, so i'll just use it up then at 4 x the dose, as I suspect it works much differently than the 
j herb because it seems like its colostrum. 
I'm giving j herb x 3 weeks and
She is not comfortable.
I will up load pics of her trim to see if something can be done there


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Nancy C <threecatfarm@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 11:53:30 AM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] LaminaSaver
 
Horse Journal (for which Dr Kellon was the veterinary editor) did review LaminaSaver (and perhaps other Figuerola products) back about 2003.  It was found effective but at a minimum of double the recommended dose.  I used it for a month for Beau (founder) in 2003. At that time it was very expensive to double dose a 1000 pound animal. $1000 per month. It was not as effective for pain control as using Dr Kellon's jiaogulan protocol which literally costs pennies per day. The realigning trim needs to be in place, and diagnosis and diet under control.

More recently folks have had better results with LaminaOx

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/241625

I'd still go with jiaogulan as my first choice with DDT under control..

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


Re: Hay, soaking hay, and hay quantity

Bobbie Day
 

Hi Marianne, welcome to the group!
Although your familiar with ECIR, I am here to formally welcome you and provide you with your welcome message. It is full of information that will help you along the way to best manage your horse. You will also see blue hyperlinks included that will take you even deeper into the subject, please keep this handy for future reference. We realize it takes a lot of reading but take your time and let us know if you have any additional questions.
I will reference some information for you regarding your questions and I am sure you will get other responses as well.
As far as how much to feed your horse, the ECIR'S and Dr.Kellon's recommendation are:

 If your horse is overweight, feed at a rate of 1.5% of his current weight, or 2% of his ideal weight – whichever is larger. Do NOT underfeed/ starve the horse.
And as mentioned here, 
Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS) | ECIR Group, Inc. (ecirhorse.org)
 
We do recommend that you stay away from fescue and alfalfa which can be problematic. The best hay is the one you can source and is low enough in starch and sugar to keep her IR/EMS at bay. 
To feed the hay wet or dry depends on if it's been tested to be less than 10% sugar and starch. what is she eating now? Is she doing ok on the hay she's getting?
If it were me, I would soak any new hay until you can get it tested, then balance accordingly. I know some members buy hay a little at a time until they can test it (wet chemistry) and go back for larger amounts if it works out, and some are only able to get smaller amounts each time and that means testing each load.
Hopefully you won't have to do that!
And if you need help with balancing, you may find this list helpful.
HAY BALANCING (groups.io)
Can we talk you into a case history so we can better advise you? Do you have test results for your horse? Anything you can provide will help. 
And as you know exercise is the best thing you can do to lower that insulin and keep IR under control but only if she is able. 
Now on to your message, again welcome!

Hello 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

 



--

Bobbie and Maggie 
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) 
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020, NAT, C&IR March 2021
ECIR Group Primary Response 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Pain Alternatives

cjfacey6@...
 

Yes she has seen the X-rays, she is getting a trim tomorrow which I know will help. Will continue working on getting the PQ in her. 
--
Courtney F. in OR 2022

Ribbon Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Courtney%20and%20Ribbon

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276443


Re: Pain Alternatives

 

wondering if Lavinia has seen the x-ray taken just a few days ago (after her markups were done I assume)

 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


Hay, soaking hay, and hay quantity

Marianne
 

It’s been several years since I was on this site as I lost my Cushinoid to colic in 2015. In 2018, I adopted a 2 yr old BLM Mustang, who was very cubby for a 2yr old. Fast forward to today, she is EMS/IR and has been removed from all grass. Her ration is 1 cup of timothy soaked cubes to base her supplements from mad barn. We are in northern Florida and I need to know what the best hay to get. Is it coastal or some other low sugar/carb forage?

 

I also need to know how much hay to give her in a 24 hour period and is that weight wet or dry to start?.

--
Marianne Barry, North Florida, 2013


Hay analysis small quantity

Shevawn Romine
 

After 3 years of testing bales of CA large bermuda with good results and getting 16 bales a load, and most importantly no laminitis,    the suppliers that had it here in TX either can no longer get it or it was very old. So I had to get back on merry go round of finding hay.    I also now only have 1 horse I am getting it for (other has nubs left for teeth so has to eat cubes).    Problem is I get a couple bales to test,   but by the time test comes back,   getting more may be totally different stack from supplier (retail).    Started soaking as laminitis attack that happened after changing is still happening,   but feel like in doom loop with getting acceptable hay with a smaller amount as afraid to get more than a couple bales and get unacceptable test results and have to soak for months.   Any tips?    
--
Shevawn and Cassie  03/2015 Gordon,TX

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