Date   

Re: Too much pergolide or increased too fast?

a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Hi Kirsten,
Thanks, that's what I needed.  When is peak of rise?  Also, ideally shouldn't one test ACTH, insulin and glucose after increasing pergolide dose?  And how long after increasing pergolide should test be done?
Have new hay which tested safe per Equi-analytical being mixed with old hay.  Soaking both for now just to be extra safe.  Should I wait until Apollo is eating only new hay before testing? 


-
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817
 


Re: Vitamin E

Lesley Bludworth
 

Hahahaha! 
Yes, that may be the case here. I like syringing her inedibles tho, we have a nice conversation. She tells me how much she doesn't like it and I tell her I know but its good for and and it will help make her feel better ;)  She seems to appreciate the effort at least.
I just read lable of both Nano E and Elevate WS. 1 cc of elevate has 500 ml Vit E. 
The Nano E has polysorbate 80 in it.  
You can look up the gut issues and immune issues with polysorbates but especially polysorbate 80 it is implicated in inflammatory bowel disease.  Anything with carrageenan (a natural emulsifier) or polysorbate and I will get an ulcer.  I know horses are not people, even though Sophie says she is one, but mammal mucus membranes are very sensitive to emulsifiers.

From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Sherry Morse via groups.io <sherry_morse@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 8:12:11 AM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Vitamin E
 
PIA - pain in the a** (as in everything needs to be syringed). Nano E, Elevate WS and Emcelle are all water soluble and in a liquid form.  Nano E is dosed for an IR horse at 8cc/day so I've never had a bottle long enough for it to go bad. 




--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


Re: Vitamin E

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I'm very sensitive to rancid oils too! Most horses are as well. Here is the technical sheet for Nano E https://ker.com/wp-content/uploads/NANO-E_TechnicalReviewSheet_US.pdf . To me, the question isn't whether it is more available but whether the cost justifies using it. Unfortunately, we don't have formal research comparing forms like this with E dissolved in oil but in 40+ years I have never been disappointed with E in oil, like Liquid E https://www.uckele.com/liquid-e-pint.html . I should mention too that all the research on vitamin E requirements in horses has used d,l-alpha tocopherol.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Vitamin E

Sherry Morse
 

PIA - pain in the a** (as in everything needs to be syringed). Nano E, Elevate WS and Emcelle are all water soluble and in a liquid form.  Nano E is dosed for an IR horse at 8cc/day so I've never had a bottle long enough for it to go bad. 




Re: Vitamin E

Lesley Bludworth
 

Good to know! 
I did not see much difference with my mare when adding the vit e/omega smartpak so will be happy to try the fat option.  
My body is very sensitive to rancid oils and I have not found a human vit e capsule that isn't already rancid by the time I finish the bottle. 
Nano E...is that micronized? Does it have better stability/shelf life?

What is a PIA horse?


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 7:05:14 AM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Vitamin E
 
Lesley,

Elevate WS is better absorbed than other dry forms but has not been tested against E in oil. Vitamin C has nothing to do with vitamin E absorption. Vitamin E is fat  soluble, C water soluble. Their absorption is totally different but they do complement each other once inside the body. I can assume you from experience that feeding powdered E with flax is not sufficient to get the fat effect. I've seen horses deteriorate rapidly when that was tried. If you want to use powder, you should mix it into an oil before adding to the feed.

To be absorbed, E has to "find" fat in the intestine then be acted on by bile acids before absorption. The intestinal tract is a huge place. Dissolving the E in oil before feeding is half the battle.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


Re: Vitamin E

Valletta Lochridge
 

Thank you Dr K and all! Lots of great info so I can move forward with confidence. This group is just the best!

Valletta in CA
2012


Re: 13 yo Arab Appears to have Cushings

b1ecks
 

Still waiting on the Vit E results. 
I will start a case history file for Hank and upload the general blood panel. 
Thank you for your help. So very appreciative..

--
Barb B in CA 2019


Re: Vitamin E

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

Lesley,

Elevate WS is better absorbed than other dry forms but has not been tested against E in oil. Vitamin C has nothing to do with vitamin E absorption. Vitamin E is fat  soluble, C water soluble. Their absorption is totally different but they do complement each other once inside the body. I can assure you from experience that feeding powdered E with flax is not sufficient to get the fat effect. I've seen horses deteriorate rapidly when that was tried. If you want to use powder, you should mix it into an oil before adding to the feed.

To be absorbed, E has to "find" fat in the intestine then be acted on by bile acids before absorption. The intestinal tract is a huge place. Dissolving the E in oil before feeding is half the battle.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Vitamin E

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lesley,

Simply being next to ground flax is not going to help powdered Vitamin E be better absorbed.  Once again horses are not humans and the recommendation to take Vitamin E with Vitamin C does not apply to them.  This is a good general overview on Vitamin E but as always, note that it is in reference to normal horses, not those with IR and/or PPID. 

Personally I use Nano E and because my gelding is such a PIA he gets dosed with it on a daily basis.




Re: Vitamin E

Lesley Bludworth
 

Valletta,  My new vet recommended the Elevate WS (water soluble)  He said it is much better absorbed.  I haven't looked into this claim it but thinking about it.  Good to know about the powdered version as I am using smartpak vit e and omegas and its in a powderish form, Im hoping its sitting around in with the ground flax so it takes on some of the oil??   In humans, vit E is better absorbed with Vit C or at least if you have Parkinson's Vit E without the Vit C you don't see any benefit.   


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Valletta Lochridge <vallettaloch@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 6:55 AM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: [ECIR] Vitamin E
 
I’m considering switching from softgels to a powder such as Elevate or the My Best Horse product.  I feed ground flax and ground chia at the same time as the vitamin E.  Will the oil from the ground seeds be enough to metabolize the E or do I need to add another oil?  If so, what type of oil is most beneficial and has the best shelf life?  Thank you…

Valletta in CA
2012

--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


Re: Vitamin E

Lesley Bludworth
 



From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Valletta Lochridge <vallettaloch@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 6:55 AM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: [ECIR] Vitamin E
 
I’m considering switching from softgels to a powder such as Elevate or the My Best Horse product.  I feed ground flax and ground chia at the same time as the vitamin E.  Will the oil from the ground seeds be enough to metabolize the E or do I need to add another oil?  If so, what type of oil is most beneficial and has the best shelf life?  Thank you…

Valletta in CA
2012

--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


Re: Vitamin E

 

Hi Valletta. You must mix powdered Vitamin E with oil so the powder is touching the oil.  Seeds won’t do. Any good quality oil is fine if it’s used quickly. My barn oil is used up and replaced every couple of weeks. I’ve used both olive oil and Coco Soya. I’m no expert on shelf life but don’t use oils that require refrigeration like flax seed oil. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Is 1.0 ml too much pergolide? #wiki-notice

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Dried herbs in a supplement are a very different thing from liquid extracts. "It's in there" doesn't guarantee effectiveness. Where is the custom supplement coming from and what levels of these herbs are in there?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Xrays and trim photos

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Kimberly,

Please relabel these as described in the Wiki so we can tell them apart. Overall impression though is they look good.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Quarter Horses and IR

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Since the QH is normally very insulin sensitive, it may be that our "normals" are too high for QHs. That said, there are many QHs and QH families that are extremely easy keepers and have huge crests but perfectly normal insulin - same with drafts.

Mia is interesting because even though her insulins are consistently mildly elevated, her leptins are always normal. I don't know what this means but there is something different going on in the QH.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Chaste tree berry

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Angie,

You are fortunate in that his insulin, at least the only one in your file, is very low so laminitis risk is low. However, even baseline ACTH shows PPID is not being controlled and the Vitex may be making that even worse. At some point, you may end up with high insulin and laminitis. We cannot recommend using Vitex in PPID horses during the seasonal rise.

Vitex agnus-castus has reliable effects on abnormal PPID coats, on abnormal temperature regulation, on udder enlargement (all of these are hypothalamic effects, not pituitary) and it is also an "upper" for horses because it has an opioid effect in the brain.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: All-rac-alfa-tocopherol acetate

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Marie,

Having worked in the vitamin industry the easiest and fastest way to get the answers to these questions is to contact the company directly and ask them.





Re: Is 1.0 ml too much pergolide? #wiki-notice

Lesley Bludworth
 

Lisa, I'm no expert but APF is not a mineral supplement but contains adaptogens.
But your minerals already contain these they may not be in amounts high enough to counter act the pergolide.
Eleutherococcus senticosus (Siberia ginseng)
Schizandra chinenis (Chinese magnolia)
Rhodiola rosea (I take this one :)
Echinopanax elatus 


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Lisa <larsen.lisaa@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2022 1:38:54 AM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Is 1.0 ml too much pergolide? #wiki-notice
 
Thank you for your responses. I am feeding her 18 pounds of hay a day. 
 
I will contact my vet to try to get her scheduled for a retest of her ACTH and insulin levels next week. That would be 3 weeks of 0.75 ml of pergolide a day. I have not used the APF. When I looked at the ingredients it contains, most of those are in the custom mineral supplement she gets, so I didn't really feel like it would be helpful. Please let me know if you think I am wrong about that. I am using Bon Appetit. 
 
Thank you!
--
Lisa L
August 2020 Milaca Minnesota
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Nira
Nira Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=273134

--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


All-rac-alfa-tocopherol acetate

Marie
 

Hi,
how many d-alfa tocopherol in the procent contains all-rac-tocopherol-acetate? And if manufacturer writes alfa tocopherol, is it nature d-alfa-tocopherol?

Thank you
--
Marie Volsicka
Mid Europe
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marie%20and%20Amalka
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276780 


Xrays and trim photos

Kimberly
 

Was hoping someone could review my new photos of Mouse's trim from 7/6 and review xrays.  I am missing one x-ray waiting on the vet to send.  Thanks everyone.  
--


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kimberly%20and%20Mouse
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275222

Kimberly joined 7.17.2018 Virginia

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