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Re: ACTH results?
And haha, yes. For a horse that 6 years ago climbed mountains as a pack horse, then, 5 years ago, found himself in the kill pen at an auction, then, 4 years ago, found himself "in training" to be a therapy horse despite his hatred of children, I'd say he probably still can't believe his good luck! haha
At the same time though, I could say the same thing about myself. I still can't believe MY good luck, finding Fabio! -- Emily and Fabio Gresham, OR USA Sept 2017 case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emily%20and%20Fabio photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9671
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Re: ACTH results?
On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 09:25 pm, Jaini Clougher wrote:
Well, this all sounds pretty good. I hear you on the food frustration thing - it is such a balancing act to keep them happy and fed, without them gaining weight. I have the same problem with the husband horse (aka The Gannet). I just tell myself: Tough Love. Better than laminitis! The other thing to consider is all the horses that get hay twice daily, not in nets, and finish it in an hour. Not ideal, but I don't see all of those horses dropping like flies (okay, not counting stereotypies if they are also stall-confined). I think Fabio has it pretty darned good. I will be interested to see how things progress as time goes on, since he started his balanced diet. It does take time, but to me it sounds like tings are steadily improving. The next step will be increased exercise - even hand-walking 20 minutes a day is helpful, although an hour would be even better (just in your spare time!) Check in with your vet about increasing exercise beyond that, because of his previous issues. Thanks! :) I'm currently working with him to teach him to chase a frisbee [haha] as we do positive reinforcement training so typical exercise activities, like lunging, are out. Luckily he loves to chase things and is already happily chasing the frisbee, we just have to work on handing it back to me! haha :)
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Re: ACTH results?
On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 03:26 pm, Julie Allen wrote:
Hi Emily,Unfortunately goopy eyes are something he struggles with every year. :( Each summer/fall he rubs all the hair off his face from rubbing his eyes on things, and has to wear a flymask to avoid eye infections from all the scratching, and from all tearing his eyes do :( Occasionally his eyes have actually swelled shut - usually traceable to him scratching his eyes too hard on something, or from it being super windy/dusty. He's never had an actual corneal scratch, but he's come close! :/ My horse prior to Fabio had ERU [uveitis] so he's been thoroughly checked, numerous times, for that as his symptoms have occasionally seemed similar, but the vet has cleared his vision each time - declaring that his eyes, internally, look better than most 14 year olds she sees. No inflammation and very little, normal, retinal scarring. I've never had concerns about his vision, but, at the same time, I owned my last horse for 3 years before we finally figured out that she was completely blind and had likely been that way since I met her! Yikes! Anyway, yeah, he's always had itchy eyes [all seasons] and goopy/teary eyes throughout the summer and fall. And thanks! I'm so glad to have a bit less to worry about too! -- Emily and Fabio Gresham, OR USA Sept 2017 case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emily%20and%20Fabio photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9671
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Re: ACTH results?
Well, this all sounds pretty good. I hear you on the food frustration thing - it is such a balancing act to keep them happy and fed, without them gaining weight. I have the same problem with the husband horse (aka The Gannet). I just tell myself: Tough Love. Better than laminitis! The other thing to consider is all the horses that get hay twice daily, not in nets, and finish it in an hour. Not ideal, but I don't see all of those horses dropping like flies (okay, not counting stereotypies if they are also stall-confined). I think Fabio has it pretty darned good. I will be interested to see how things progress as time goes on, since he started his balanced diet. It does take time, but to me it sounds like tings are steadily improving. The next step will be increased exercise - even hand-walking 20 minutes a day is helpful, although an hour would be even better (just in your spare time!) Check in with your vet about increasing exercise beyond that, because of his previous issues.
Good job, you! -- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy
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Re: ACTH results?
"Touch-me-nots" are an adverse reaction by the horse to being groomed and touched. This is seen when they have "euthyroid sick syndrome" , meaning that although there is nothing wrong with the actual thyroid gland, something else is causing low thyroid hormone levels; can also be seen in IR. Of course, horses can object to being groomed and touched for a variety of reasons, but these cranky, touch-me-not signs can resolve with appropriate diet.
-- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy
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Re: Putting weight on my horse w I.R.
Hi, Tara - all of us were completely overwhelmed at the beginning of sorting out our IR and/or Cushing's horses. This is normal! There is so much information, it seems impossible to take it all in, but I promise: it will get better, and easier.
The Triple Crown Naturals Timothy Balance cubes are just fine; they were initially developed with the collaboration of Ontario Dehy and Dr. Kellon. (Huge thanks to Aurelio and Eleanor!). You can use either the Timothy Balance cubes, or beet pulp, or both to help put weight on (as well as the free-choice hay). Full plan below! Human grade ground flax is just fine, but more expensive than that from the feedstore. Look into Omega Fields Horseshine: https://www.omegafields.com/equine-products/omega-horseshine-37.html Good product, and might be cheaper. Here is the info about how to upload the hay report and the latest bloodwork into the EC Case History site: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/New-Member%27s-Welcome and https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/home#Case-History-Help Basically, what you should do to start with is create a document on your computer to put in the blood work, then join EC Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory Go to Files on the left hand side. Click on New Folder at the top. Call your folder Tara and Horse Name. In Description, type Blood Work. Click on Add at the bottom of that box. It will immediately disappear! Don't panic - near the top of the page at the right hand side, type your name into the search box and hit search. This will take you to folders named "Tara". Click on yours. Then, click on the Upload File box at the top. Go to "Browse", and with any luck, it will take you to the files on your computer. Choose the document and click Add, or Open (whatever word you computer uses). For the hay analysis, if you have it in an email or pdf, save it on your computer, and do the same steps as above. Type Hay Analysis in the description. Please don't upload images (pictures) in the file section. If you have trouble with this, email one of us and we will help. You can email me at merlin5clougher at gmail dot com (replace the "at" with @, and the "dot" with . No spaces) Once you get your hay analysis uploaded, you can email one of the people at this link: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/3.%20Getting%20Help%20with%20Mineral%20Balancing.pdf It is in Folder 6 Diet Balancing: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing I can't say what balancer will be best for you until we see your hay report. However, start with California Trace Plus for now - you can never go wrong with that. It won't help with the major minerals like magnesium, but is excellent for the trace minerals. Whereabouts in the US are you? Here is the plan: Continue the free-choice hay. Use either (or both) the Timothy Balance Cubes and/or rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp to add calories, and to get the following supplements in: 2 scoops of California Trace Plus; 2,000 IU Vitamin E (as five capsules of 400 IU each, make sure there is soy oil listed on the ingredients); 1 to 2 tablespoons of table salt (start with 1, in case he doesn't like it); 3/4 cup of the ground flax; and 1/2 a teaspoon to 1 teaspoon of magnesium oxide (from your feed store). As far as the Timothy Balance Cubes go, he can eat as much of those as your wallet will allow. They are a complete feed. To boost weight (without going broke), feed a 6 quart bucket a day, as well as all the hay he can eat. Get your hay tested, and upload the results in the file section of EC Case History. Upload the blood results there, as well. Then we can get someone to balance your diet . The fee is usually between $40 an $70 US. Once you get that initial diet plan in place (as above), download and fill out the case history form you can find on the EC Case History site. It is tedious, but just fill in the stuff you know about (horse's name, breed, date of birth and so on), and all the diet and exercise info. If one of the boxes or questions is not clear, or does not apply, don't worry - just go to the next box and fill in what you can. Does that all make sense? -- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy
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Re: Help with my mare!
Hi Jaini!
Ok thanks so much for the info!!!! Sounds terrific and I will order some!!!
Thanks again!!
Heather Davis Brandon, MB Canada
--
Heather August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada Riosa Photos
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Re: Help with my mare!
Hi, Heather - The Natural Factors list soybean oil in the non-medicinal ingredients on the label. Although they are "mixed tocopherols", there are400 IUs of d tocopherol (Vitamin E) in the capsule. Here 'tis: http://www.nationalnutrition.ca/detail.aspx?ID=2022
-- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy
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Re: Jessica - Hay Saver
That would be wonderful, for everyone in Canada who has access to the Hoffman's Hay Saver. Thank you!
-- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy
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Jessica - Hay Saver
nobst@telus.net
I sent in an analysis this fall for Hoffmans Hay Saver to Equi-Analytical. If this is the brand, I can pass along the results for sugar/starch.
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Re: Help with my mare!
Hi,
I don't mean to hijack the thread but do the Natural Factors vitamin E capsules have soy in them as I don't see anything in thee description stating this? Could you tell us which ones you order Jaini? Thanks!!!
Heather Davis
--
Heather August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada Riosa Photos
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Re: Putting weight on my horse w I.R.
Tara Smith
Thank u just got all of this ..I'm so grateful !!! I have a special lamanitic farrier coming Friday. She is a member here and recommend you to me as did my Spanish mustangs previous owner . I feel so overwhelmed w all views on what to do ..I will follow what is said here to start ..I need a clear cut plan !!what about triple crown Timothy hay cubes . And which balancer would u choose for #1choice . ? Would the pulp be for weight gain? And what about minerals ..is there all in one balancer /mineral option . I would like to send hay report and latest blood work from late spring to be reviewed is there a fee I can pay for a total diet plan for my horse I need to know specifically what to get and implement ..also ,what can help w acute pain ?can horses gave human grade ground flax ? My very best Tara
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Re: ACTH results?
On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:39 am, Jaini Clougher wrote:
Gosh, looks good to me! (ie, not PPID). That means he is "just" IR, but you now know how to manage that. The bad news, of course, is that he may become PPID later on (next year, 5 years from now, or never- can't predict)Awesome!! That's amazing news! Very thankful he dodged the PPID bullet (at least for now)!! As far as noticing behavior changes since starting the diet, the biggest difference I've noticed is how intensely sensitive to grass he is - he gets "too quiet" (like he's sleepwalking or something) and then, if it's especially bad, he'll also be super spooky like every little thing jolts him out of whatever land his mind is in...if that makes sense? Really the big thing is that he is all the sudden having a ton of "good days" without needing medication to have good days at all! He used to need SO MUCH "help" to have any good days at all, it's awesome to see him feeling energetic and happy :) He's self-exercising a lot more now which is also amazing (he's a high-energy boy so exercise is key). He hasn't been interested in being ridden yet, but maybe one day :) I'm hoping that one day he'll feel good enough to try being ridden! He loves exploring so much but was always scarily unpredictable undersaddle (and on the ground, but it was scariest undersaddle!) in the past, so I put a stop to all ridden work because I was afraid he might accidentally hurt me badly during an "episode." In any case, his mind is much much sounder these days and I feel like safely riding him again one day might just be possible. Fingers crossed! He's definitely still super itchy ("normal" for him) and he's still picky about how/when/who in regards to being touched, but he's been that way for as long as I've known him. It'd be amazing if he ended up being more human-social one day, but I have heard that Lipizzans tend to be less social than some...so it might just be who he is. Speaking of being social, since starting his IR diet, he's gotten SO much more interested in other horses. He's still his same independent, adventurous, self but he shows interest in other horses (beyond his just favorite equid - his donkey "wife") which he never, ever, did before. He's doing really well! I wish I could solve his food frustration (he eats his 16lbs of hay in two feedings, both in a .5inch holed hay net that has been zip-tied into a small Rubbermaid bin to slow him down even more) but he's done eating in 4-5 hours and spends the other 5-6 before feeding time being all agitated and angsty about food. Unfortunately, a third feeding isn't in the cards and his weight loss has platued so I doubt increasing his hay at all would do his figure any good! :( But otherwise he's doing awesome! :) -- Emily and Fabio Gresham, OR USA Sept 2017 case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emily%20and%20Fabio photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9671
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Re: ACTH results?
Karen Warne
Jaini, what are “ skin touch-me-nots”?
-- Karen and Luke May 1 2017 Northern California
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke
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Re: Help with Flax Oil
Patty Franklin
Heather, in addition to what Bonnie says, keep your flax seed (whole or ground) in a cool, dry place to retard the oils from going rancid. In winter, the barn may be fine, but think about summer and where you will story a large quantity of whole flax seed. I use my basement, which is always cooler.
-- Helen Connor and Blessing (IR/PPID) May 2017 Scappoose, OR USA Blessing's Case History: https://ecir.groups. Blessing's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/
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Re: ACTH results?
Hi Emily,
did Fabio have goop eyes this fall only? or is that something he has every fall? and my arab also shivers if it gets around 40f around here and she has a fairly nice hair coat, she has always been 'thin skinned' and needing blankets when the fall/ winter rain and cold come in. all my horses had goop eyes this summer and fall, I figured it was the unusually hot dry dusty long simmer and the fire 8 miles away. when the rains started all eyes cleared up. So glad you will have one less thing to manage with your guy!!! -- Julie with (new) pony in oregon october 2006 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/filessearch?q=kayla+and+julie https://ECIR.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Case%20History%20Form%20aria%20pony.doc
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Re: Help with Flax Oil
Heather, I see you keep your horse at home. An option for you would be buying whole flax seed from a feed store and grinding it with a coffee grinder daily. It is much cheaper than bags of ground flax and it won't go rancid because you feed it within a short time after grinding. You can pre-grind a weeks worth and refrigerate it. I had a cheap electric coffee grinder in my barn and would grind just before each meal.
-- Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016 ECIR Primary Response White Cloud, Michigan, USA
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Re: ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance
#FACTS
On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:57 am, Tara Smith wrote:
How do I ask a question and get a responseHere's a response from Jaini to a previous question of yours, Tara. Has it not come through for you? https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/214522 -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
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Re: Unmedicated ACTH drop
Hi, Vikki - what were the insulin and glucose for this latest blood draw?
I can think of two possibilities (and Dr. Kellon can correct me if I am off-base!) 1) Echo is not PPID; he is showing a normal seasonal increase in ACTH from September through to the beginning of November, and he has finished his seasonal rise by mid-November or so. Older horses can have a somewhat higher (up to 70 or 80 pg/ml) during the seasonal rise, and not necessarily be PPID. He comes out as not IR on one blood draw, and compensated IR by the G:I ratio , not IR on the other calculations, on the September 2016 blood draw: https://www.ecirhorse.org/ir-calculator-leptin.php 2) Blood handling issues, resulting in lower than actual levels of ACTH; one suspects this when the glucose in particular looks much too low. Echo has a truly interesting case history, with the diagnosed DSLD in 2016 (MRI and Ultrasound) followed by a near-normal tendon ultrasound in spring of 2017. Please do keep us updated on any new scans of the tendons. How is he doing at the moment? Any lameness? -- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy
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Re: Custom Minerals
Hi, Matthew - I am so glad Charley is doing well! I nearly had a heart attack (as I am sure you did) when that hay-bag cord disappeared; and it sounds like he is feeling well in himself.
Yes, you need to add magnesium, and also some calcium, because your hay has a fair amount of phosphorus in it, so the calcium: phosphorus balance is reversed. We aim for the following ratios: Calcium:Phosphorus 2:1, and Calcium:Magnesium 1.5: 1 (for an IR horse). This means: Charley is getting 19.4 grams of calcium in his hay right now, plus a couple of grams from the beet pulp - say a total of 21.4 grams. He is getting 13.3 grams of phosphorus from his hay, which means he should be getting a total of 26.6 grams of calcium, and 17 grams of magnesium (he is getting only 6.7 grams of magnesium from his hay). To bring the calcium and magnesium up to speed, you should add 19 grams of Magnesium Oxide, which is 21 cc, or one tablespoon plus one teaspoon. This will give you the necessary 11 extra grams of elemental magnesium. You should also add 16 grams of Calcium Carbonate, to give you the needed extra 6 grams of calcium (but I don't know how many teaspoons that is - I don't have any on hand to check with my gram scale). Does that make sense? Go ahead and add the Magnesium Oxide, at any rate; don't wait until you get the Calcium Carbonate. -- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy
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