Re: Devil's Claw for ligament pain


Thanks Dr. Kellon, I have ordered the Phytoquench from Gwen at Uckele. Should I pursue a diagnosis for DSLD with ultrasound sent for evaluation by DSLD veterinarian? Or are we most likely dealing with the PPID caused breakdown of connective tissues. I am reading about DSLD on the Yahoo group, and still having a hard time wrapping my mind around whether Halo has this diagnosis, or whether it is because of the PPID and maybe she would improve with this treatment. Or is it incurable.
Mary and Halo and Wellon

West Fargo, ND, USA

Joined spring 2016


Re: Devil's Claw for ligament pain

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

You can special order just the DC standardized extract from Uckele, or use Phyto-Quench pellets, which contain DC, instead.
Eleanor in PA 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001

ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance #FACTS Integration <main@...>

By ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

There are many horses, mules, and donkeys who have PPID and/or IR and are simply not diagnosed yet. Learn more about the symptoms, diagnosis, and treatment at

Re: Devil's Claw for ligament pain

Pauline <takarri@...>

Devils claw is safe to use, but correct on the Yucca-  we do not recommend its use.
Check this list in the files section for suitable pain relief  alternatives



Geelong. Vic

Australia Aug 07

ECIR Mod/Primary Response


 Harry, Jack and Spur's Case Histories   

Re: pony (Cookie) in crisis

Sue Meadows

I just received from the vet, Cookie's IR test.  He is IR.   He is 35uIL/mL  from a range of 4.5-20.0 uIL/mL.   I have asked the Vet for all the stats from this test. 
The lab used was IDEXX vetconnect   1888-433-9987.

I am putting this into my case history but I still have not been able to up load the case history to the group site.  It teils me I am not subscribed.  therefore I do not get a new folder button.

Sue Meadows
Colorado Springs, CO

Re: Devil's Claw for ligament pain

Elena Knox <eknox217@...>

I think I am the 'Elena' you are addressing. If not, please ignore this email. 

Devils Claw Plus from Ukele is available online (valley vet and many others). I get it locally at Tractor Supply. The recommended dosage is two scoops (scoop provided in package) per day per 1000 # average weight horse. I give El Cuervo one scoop in the morning, and one in the evening, mixed in with his other supplements. 

 合掌 gasshou

Elena Knox

209.296.3743 home
209.256.2500 cell

Sub clinical laminitis and cold-induced laminitis



I cannot access the files regarding subclinical laminitis or winter protocol.  My computer says the site is either busy or blocked.  Is there a better way to get to those files than through the pets/yahoo way?  I have been trying to use links found in "Messages".

Thank you.

Helen and Josie
May, 2016
Brunswick, VT

Re: Lavinia Fiscaletti- trims scheduled, input?

Cassie & Cleo

Hi Lavinia, he will be out tomorrow morning, around 10 am PST

Re: Devil's Claw for ligament pain

beverly meyer

My usually faulty memory tells me Devils' Claw was one of the herbs we were not to use. Can you refresh my memory on that? And yes, dosing would be helpful. Yucca is not approved I believe. Are there other anti-inflammatories on the OK list?

Thanks, Beverly Texas 2014

Re: New comer

May Pearson

Sorry for the late reply. I just had cataract surgery and wasn't able to read until now.

Blondie will be moving end of January, it's about 25 miles. 
On Stabul 1, how much should I give her?
Should I have her test for IR? The last blood work was only for PPID.
After the blood result, vet wants her to stayed on 1mg, should I wait until spring for the new test to determent if need to increase her dosage,
or should I up it now, and how much?

I estimated the hay weight for the day will be about or less than 10lbs, it's inconsistent from day to day due to different groom feeds different days.
I will check if the rescue place is willing to soak the hay. I will also check with the grower for the analysis done once we moved.

Once again, thank you every , I will keep reading and learning and do the best I can.

May and Blondie
June, 2010

Re: waiting on Pergolide

LJ Friedman

For future, because I’m using 18 mg, when I’m running very low I will specifically asked them what they have in stock and let them know the day I know it must arrive at my home. There been times when they’ve made things the same day or out the next day because it was absolutely needed. I think something must’ve gotten mixed up down the road ,with them , in your case

LJ Friedman  Nov 2014  San Diego, CA 

. https://ecir.groups. io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ% 20and%20Jesse ( )

Re: Lavinia - Dr. K - Guidance PLEASE - Frogs - Farrier coming tomorrow


Great support in these talks. So appreciate your reply. Thank you!
Robyn & Toons
North Bay, CA

April 2016


Re: waiting on Pergolide

macivor macivor <macivor19@...>

they can also overnight ship.  expensive. 

casey oregon

On Jan 11, 2018, at 4:40 AM, Martha McSherry <mmcsherry@...> wrote:

Is it possible they might have some capsules available that are not 20 mg?  Even a bunch of 1mg capsules?  Sometimes it’s just the capsule making that slows them down.
Martha in Vermont
Logo, Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Logo's Case History: 
July 2012

Re: Devil's Claw for ligament pain


Elena, where do you get the Devils Claw you give your horse, and are there dosing specifics you recommend? Thank you!
Mary and Halo and Wellon

West Fargo, ND, USA

Joined spring 2016


Re: Question regarding connection between PPID and DSLD


I would like to hire one of the vet experts here to analyze what I have Halo on as far as supplements and make recommendations. I had Uckele develop the custom mineral mix I am giving her based on my hay analysis. I have been afraid to give vitamin C because of the iron overload issues, I think our water up here has a lot of iron. If there is any chance I could reverse the ligament drop I would surely do that. I mostly don't want to prolong any misery if there is no chance for a life worth living. I am an RN that works with humans as an Advance Care Planning facilitator, meaning I help people determine what is an acceptable outcome if they accept certain medical treatment, what makes life worth living, and when is it time to stop treatment, and to write it into an Advance Directive. Having just done this with my own father, I am acutely aware of  quality of life, and when it is time to stop. If we don't have a chance of a life without pain, I need to stop. You all know how that goes. If one of the veterinarians could consult and look at what I have been feeding and providing for care, please let me know. Thank you.
Mary and Halo and Wellon 

West Fargo, ND, USA

Joined spring 2016


Re: Question regarding connection between PPID and DSLD

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

PPID horses that develop a degenerative tendon or ligament issue probably have a predisposing factor. It may be a prior very athletic life, or conformational issues, or genetic. Human research has found people that develop degenerative problems probably have predisposing genetics.  DSLD in horses is likely  more than one underlying issue. Some (the PPs) seem to have a clearly genetic,  body-wide issue but those horses that only develop this late in life/with PPID don't necessarily have those same genes. A proper diet in conjunction with PPID  control can make a big difference. Diet is actually very similar to IR. Here is a post of mine from the DSLD group:

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:

Those of you who have been involved with this disease for a long time
probably remember a few years back when an antioxidant supplement was
being reported to help horses with DSLD. This falls in the category
of maximizing their nutrition so that you don't have any preventable
road blocks to keeping the tissues as healthy as they can possibly
be. When DSLD is your starting point, things like this get even more

I always prefer to make supplement recommendations based on hay
analysis. There's no question that is the most accurate way to do it.
That said, many people are not in a position to do this so I've put
together some general recommendations, based on hay analyses, that
should help without causing problems themselves!

All horses not on pasture:

Vitamin E, minimum 2000 IU/day. If your area is low selenium, add 2
mg of selenium. If you use a powdered supplement, be sure to mix it
with a tablespoon or so of oil before feeding to make sure the E is
absorbed well.

E is important for muscle support, antioxidant protection of cell
membranes and deficiency can directly effect the quality of

Journal of Nutrition Vol. 91 No. 1 January 1967
Effect of Vitamin E Deficiency on Collagen Metabolism in the Rat's
R. Glenn Brown3,4, Grace M. Button and John T. Smith

Department of Nutrition, University of Tennessee, Knoxville,

The effects of avitaminosis E on collagen metabolism in the skin of
rats were studied. Hides from littermate male rats raised with
vitamin E-sufficient or vitamin E-deficient diets were fractionated
into neutral salt-soluble, acid-soluble and insoluble collagen. The
rate of gel formation at 37°, pH 7.4, of both crude and purified
neutral-salt and acid-soluble collagen solutions from the skin of
these animals was measured together with the stability of those gels
to 4° temperatures for various time periods. It was found that the
animals raised with the vitamin E-deficient diets had a greater
percentage of soluble collagen in their skins. The neutral salt-
soluble collagen solutions from the deficient group did not form gels
as readily as did those from their controls nor were these gels as
stable to 4° temperature. These results suggest a defect in the
formation of intermolecular and intramolecular crosslinkages in the
collagen from the vitamin E-deficient group.

All horses not on pasture:

Vitamin C, 1 mg/lb of bodyweight/day. C can worse iron overload
symptoms and increase iron absorption, but it's also critical to
connective tissue health. The horse can manufacture enough C to
prevent a full blown deficiency (Scurvy, a nutritional connective
tissue disease), but blood levels fall very low to undetectable over
the winter. This dose is low even compared to intakes on grass.

Zinc and copper:

Zinc is an almost universal deficiency and another important
antioxidant. High iron intakes depress zinc. Zinc is also directly
involved in collagen synthesis:

Surg Gynecol Obstet. 1981 Mar;152(3):323-6.Links
Influence of zinc on synthesis and the accumulation of collagen in
early granulation tissue.Tengrup I, Ahonen J, Zederfeldt B.
Chronic zinc deficiency causes a delay of reparative processes. The
rate of repair is normalized by the administration of zinc. An acute
lowering of the serum zinc level follows trauma. In a previous
experimental study, it was demonstrated that the intramuscular
administration of zinc beginning before trauma results in an
increased collagen accumulation in early granulation tissue. In this
study, the rate of collagen synthesis was determined to see if the
higher amount of collagen found in early granulation tissue could be
explained by increased collagen synthesis. The rate of collagen
synthesis was studied by the determination of the incorporation of
14C-L-proline into collagen in vivo and in vitro. No difference was
found regarding collagen synthesis in the granulation tissue of rats
in the control and zinc treated groups. Specific activity of
collagen, a measure of newly synthesized collagen in relation to the
total amount of collagen, was found to increase markedly during the
observation time. Further, the specific activity was found to be
lower in the rats of the zinc treated groups than in the rats of the
control groups on days 4 and 5, an indication that, after the
administration of zinc there is more earlier synthesized, not
labeled, collagen present. A possible explanation is that there is a
concomitant synthesis and breakdown of collagen in granulation tissue
and that the rate of breakdown is decreased by the administration of

I've talked about copper before as an essential cofactor in the
enzyme lysyl oxidase, forming crosslinks in collagen.

For horses on both coasts and in the northern tier states: 1/2 tsp of
a 50:50 mixture of Poly Copper and Poly Zinc (from

For horses along the Gulf Coast (except Florida) and in the mid and
southwest: 1/4 tsp of a 50:50 mixture of Poly Copper and Poly Zinc.

Eleanor in PA 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001

Re: Mare Foundred Not Improving

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

Hi Angela,

It will help you at this point to always keep the DDT paradigm in mind.

D: Diagnosis

Need your case history and labs but so far IR and laminitis.

D: Diet and Drugs

As Jaini said, keep to the emergency diet for now. Several things she has been fed in the past were likely exacerbating her IR.

As for drugs, what is she on?  The standard NSAIDs (bute, Banamine, firocoxib) don't help much because metabolic laminitis is not inflammatory. She would likely respond better being weaned off those drugs and onto Jiaogulan.

T: Trim

Need photos. Pain from improper trim can only be corrected by trim. Most horses do better in boots and with more frequent trims, especially if on Jiaogulan. I would also put  her on the winter laminitis protocol to help protect from cold induced pain.
Eleanor in PA 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001

Re: waiting on Pergolide


Is it possible they might have some capsules available that are not 20 mg?  Even a bunch of 1mg capsules?  Sometimes it’s just the capsule making that slows them down.
Martha in Vermont
Logo, Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Logo's Case History: 
July 2012

Re: Devil's Claw for ligament pain

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

Just for the record, I would follow Elena's suggestion. You  may have to adjust Jiaogulan dose to  maintain pinker gums when on DC, but it can be done.
Eleanor in PA 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001

Re: Riosa IR horse who has gone off beet pulp and supp and now has cough


Thanks Jaini!

I will get proceed with the plans for the beet pulp for when I am gone as well as will get some spirulina and some j-herb as well and add those to her list of supplements.

Thanks again everyone for all the suggestions!
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada


 Photos,,,20,2,0,0  .