Date   

Re: hay tests to request and my name is coming up wrong

 

Excellent, excellent, excellent news about her eating the ODTB cubes.  That is huge in older horses with tooth problems, getting them to consume something that will be easier for them to process. Good job, you!

I often increase pergolide by physical signs, in between blood tests. You could safely increase if you wish; it is okay to leave the Prascend dissolved for a couple of days. (possibly up to 10 - 14 days, which is what one study has shown for stabilitly of aqueous pergolide solutions). Link to study here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/3%20Cushings%20Disease%20-%20PPID/Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/Pergolide/1.%20Compounded%20Pergolide/Compounded%20Pergolide.pdf


And good dope about pergolide here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/3%20Cushings%20Disease%20-%20PPID/Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/Pergolide/Pergolide%20101.pdf

If it were me, I would increase the pergolide by .25 mg every 3 days.  I do know that ACTH is on the downswing now, but I would increase to 2.0 mg, then re-test ACTH in late July to mid-August.

Wow. I wonder where I saw that what I wanted was the NSC, WSC plus starch?

Bwa-ha-ha! The NSC, WSC stuff is everywhere - kind of like the Borg, trying to assimilate everyone. It all started with Dr. Pollitt's study 10 or 12 years ago, inducing laminitis with the chicory root inulin, administered by naso-gastric tube, in a very large dose, to horses. Laminitis was induced; important information was learned; but the popular press go hold of it and it has hung on ever since. Since then, laminitis (just like what we see in our PPID and IR horses) has been shown to be reliably induced by hyperinsulinemia. In IR horses, insulin is driven by simple sugars and starches. This makes it WAY easier to find appropriate hay (thank goodness).

The proceedings of the NO Laminitis! Conference from November will be published very soon (stay tuned! We will announce, and give links) - there will be some really great stuff from Dr. Gustafson about selecting and balancing hay for our metabolically challenged horses.

--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: MovEase available...

 

So very sorry to hear of your loss, Chanda. They leave such a big hole in our lives when they leave. Thinking of you.

--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: hay tests to request and my name is coming up wrong

Mimi Costley
 

Thanks Jaini. That was the page I had seen. I just did the $2 cheaper option and sent to Dairy One so I do have all the tests I need. This afternoon I added the WSC and I am sure spent more than the $2 I saved for a test I don't need. : ) I was testing the Standlee alfalfa pellets. They said the minerals should be pretty consistent. I know the sugars may vary bag to bag but they claim they are 9. Since my other hay is 5.8 and 4.9 starch plus ESC, I am hoping I won't get in trouble with sugar from alfalfa if I start using some again.

Scarlet had started getting some pulse in front feet, especially her left which is always the problem one. I stopped the alfalfa and decreased the TC Senior to one can and of course free choice hay. She wasn't eating much hay and was loosing weight. I ordered NUZU 1. It is taking longer to get here than they originally said. I couldn't wait any longer watching her loose weight, so I got Timothy Balance cubes yesterday. I hadn't tried them earlier because I had never been able to get her to eat hay cubes before. She had always refused soaked ones and dry made her mouth sore. I soaked the Timothy Balance cubes in stevia water and added a crumbled NUZU fenugreek treat. She gobbled it up! I started with just 1/2 lb added to her lb of TC. Now up to 1lb each. Will increase to 1 1/2 cubes and 1 lb TC tomorrow. Plan to phase out the TC of course.
The pulse is gone and her fetlocks feel nice and tight. Her neck is getting softer.

She is shedding out, but leaving a fuzzy haricoat behind. Should I increase from 1.5 mg pergolide to 2 mg pergolide? Should I do it .25 mg at a time? Can I leave the extra .25 mg dissolved in water in a syringe in the fridge for 24 hr.?

Thank you thank you

Mimi and Scarlet Feb 2016
northern VA
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/673457680
--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 4/29/16, Jaini Clougher <merlin5clougher@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [ECIR] hay tests to request and my name is coming up wrong
To: main@ECIR.groups.io
Date: Friday, April 29, 2016, 5:41 PM

Hi, Mimi - Did you ask
for the Trainer # 603, or the basic starch and sugars?  
Trainer # 603 is the recommended test. It includes WSC as
well as ESC and starch; major minerals; trace minerals;
horse DE and the other standard forage tests. However, you
do not need WSC.  NSC is an obsolete term, not needed when
figuring out whether or not hay is safe for IR horses.
Instead, ESC plus starch should be less than 10%.  Fructans
are not involved in endocrinopathic laminits (although a
really enormous fructan overload will give the same kind of
laminitis that occurs with a feed-room break-in, and carb
overload: fever, systemic illness, endotoxemia etc as well
as laminitis). The fructan theory of pasture-associated
laminitis has become an urban myth, very hard to combat out
there in the real world. Try this file for testing
hay:https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/2.%20Analyzing%20Hay%20and%20Feed%202013.pdfAnyway,
the good news is that no NSC or WSC needed. The bad news is
that if you didn't get the right test, there may be
other things missing that you need. Have a look at the file
above.I can't help you with the name mix-ups; I
had a quick look but couldn't find any responses to your
messages addressed "Maxine". Sorry. :)
--
Jaini
(BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,GypsyBC
09ECIR
mod/supporthttps://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy


Re: Cornell Results/ Turnaround time

Melanie Christensen
 

Hi Lisa and Hilary,

Thanks for your input.    I guess I will call my vet Monday morning and ask them to call Cornell.   I'm not sure the protocol for preparing the samples was followed,  and the spinning, etc has to be done up at their office.  The vet and vet tech were not in the office yesterday or today.

I asked Dr. Kellon about balancing Clydes diet and she recommended the U-Balance Foundation.   I still have last year's hay stored inside,  so did not test again.   I can't remember who looked at the hay analysis but mentioned the iron in it,  I do shake the hay if we have to feed extra during the coldest times in winter, otherwise they all eat from a hay net.   If I need to have a mineral balancing I can do that.  I need to search files for that information.

Clyde is very very ouchy on his right front. It has gotten worse and I cannot find a physical source of the problem.  The only change is that it's spring here,  not a warm April by any means,  but he has no access to pasture or grass.    Perhaps he needs his feet trimmed/rasped again.  It's been 2 and a half weeks. My farrier is puzzled but is coming tomorrow.   I am gone until Sunday so my husband is keeping watch and he is wondering if cold water on the hoof would help?   I'm not sure if it should be done,  the weather yesterday was in the 50s and today mid 60s.  Last week's overnight temps were down to almost freezing.

Thank you again for your input.   I hope to post blood results early next week.

--
Melanie & Clyde Jan 2015

Minnesota

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melanie%20and%20Clyde/Clyde%20Case%20History.pdf


--
Melanie & Clyde Jan 2015

Minnesota

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melanie%20and%20Clyde/Clyde%20Case%20History.pdf


Re: hay tests to request and my name is coming up wrong

Mimi Costley
 

Wow. I wonder where I saw that what I wanted was the NSC, WSC plus starch? Using the ESC makes my hay quite low at 4.9 and 5.8. Thanks

Mimi and Scarlet Feb 2016
northern VA
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/673457680

--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 4/29/16, Nancy C <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [ECIR] hay tests to request and my name is coming up wrong
To: main@ECIR.groups.io
Date: Friday, April 29, 2016, 5:28 PM

Hi MimiCant
help with your folder issues.  Here a couple of docs that
may support what I am about to tell youhttps://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20BalancingYou
don't need WSC, just ESC and Starch.Your name is
appearing correctly in your posts. As long as you sign as
you are, we know who you are.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR
Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR,
PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out
the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm
of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org


Re: Travis new test results, impossible?

Nancy C
 

I'm impressed Wallene.  Hugs all around.

Looks like you found the Case History site.

Good job.
--

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: Feeding my thin, recovering laminitic horse in light work

 

By "base diet" do you mean the emergency diet? If so, yes, you definitely need to modify the diet. The emergency diet is only meant for short term use, until you can get an analysis and other pieces in place.

We have a file, "Feeding Recovered Laminitics When Back in Work." Bottom line, you need to "feed the work." I know first hand how difficult it is to let go of rigid diet control when a horse has suffered laminitis. You can easily feed a post-laminitic, working horse. Go here to read the file: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/2.%20Feeding%20Recovered%20Laminitics%20When%20Back%20in%20Work.pdf 

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Missouri, 2005



Re: laminitis sinker - 10 days ago - support please

 

thank you - I did wean her down from 15 cc 2X day IV,  by 1cc IV per day,  down to "a still high" dose of 11 cc 2X day IV
Then went to same dose but oral, but her gut absorption is obviously not  as good as in the blood.
I have sent another email to Eleanor Kellon

On 4/29/2016 2:19 PM, Nancy C wrote:

Hi Sharon

When you are on the home page, scroll down to see CASE HISTORY sub group, which you need to join.

Not sure about giving ALCAR with NSAIDs and hope Dr Kellon will weigh in.

We can give you the dose for ALCAR is 1 gram per 100 lbs of BW. All recs for ancillary supplements assume you are on a balanced diet for efficacy. You need to make sure she's on at least the emergency diet and her trim is being addressed.

Backing off NSAIDs suddenly can result in rebound pain.  Wean her off slowly, spacing out the meds.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/154521?p=relevance,0,NSAID+rebound,20,2,0,2702712&offset=1

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message?p=relevance%2C0%2C%2522While%2Bdo%2Bmy%2B%2522list-keeping%2522%2Bchores%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0&newmsgnum=1&msgnum=135977

Make sure you click on the three buttons at the bottom of the second email link to make sure the whole email opens up.
--

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



-- 
Sharon Pickthorne
One on One Software Training
Chair - NVI Chapter, BCHBC
Director, Horse Council BC
Chair - Joint Trails and Access Committee
250-337-1818


Re: laminitis sinker - 10 days ago - support please

 

just filling out case history and yes diet has been taken care of.
Sharon and Elsa

On 4/29/2016 2:59 PM, Jaini Clougher wrote:
On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 09:37 am, sharonpickthorne <oneonone@...> wrote:
I'm in that page and on the left side I only see Home and Messages - no "Files"
What should I do?
Sharon and Elsa

 

Hi, Sharon - are you a member of the CaseHistory Subgroup?  Go to the home page of this main list:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main  On the right hand side toward the bottom, you will see the Subgroups listed.  Have a look at the CaseHistory subgroup, and join it.

Is Elsa on the Temporary Emergency Diet? Soaked a
--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




-- 
Sharon Pickthorne
One on One Software Training
Chair - NVI Chapter, BCHBC
Director, Horse Council BC
Chair - Joint Trails and Access Committee
250-337-1818


Re: Help with giving Prascend car

Susan Davis
 

Forgot my links - sorry


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/SueandWiz/

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/944050477
Sue and Wiz, NC
August 2014


Re: Help with giving Prascend car

Susan Davis
 

Thank you.  Have tried Beete-Bites and was successful for about two weeks!  They smell great but now he won't even touch them and of course have a new unopened bag! Was not aware one could dissolve the tablets - thought I had read somewhere that that reduced the effectiveness but will try the applesauce and a treat follow up  too.

thanks again



Re: laminitis sinker - 10 days ago - support please

 

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 09:37 am, sharonpickthorne <oneonone@...> wrote:
I'm in that page and on the left side I only see Home and Messages - no "Files"
What should I do?
Sharon and Elsa

 

Hi, Sharon - are you a member of the CaseHistory Subgroup?  Go to the home page of this main list:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main  On the right hand side toward the bottom, you will see the Subgroups listed.  Have a look at the CaseHistory subgroup, and join it.

Is Elsa on the Temporary Emergency Diet? Soaked a
--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: Travis new test results, impossible?

 

Hi, Wallene - Fantastic news! According to the insulin and glucose, Travis is not IR, and I am doing the happy dance for you.

Go to the home page of the main list of this new group; on the right hand side twoards the bottom you will see Subgroups listed.  Join the CaseHIstory@ECIR.groups.io, or click on this link here to join up.   CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io

Once you are a member of that case history group, you can post a case history. Our amazing file clerk, LeeAnne, moved most of the case histories over; but, as you can imagine, it was an enormous job, and it is possible that not all came through. I couldn't find Travis's case history over on the Yahoo list, but I didn't check all the ECHistory lists. Just a caveat: on this new case history site, you can't use any punctuation of any kind in the title; so you can call it Wallene and Travis;  but if you name it Wallene & Travis, or Wallene + Travis, or any title with a punctuation, not only will your history not load, it may affect the space-time continuum. (at least, that is my understanding)

Congrats again on the good numbers. 

--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: hay tests to request and my name is coming up wrong

 

Hi, Mimi - Did you ask for the Trainer # 603, or the basic starch and sugars?   Trainer # 603 is the recommended test. It includes WSC as well as ESC and starch; major minerals; trace minerals; horse DE and the other standard forage tests. However, you do not need WSC.  NSC is an obsolete term, not needed when figuring out whether or not hay is safe for IR horses. Instead, ESC plus starch should be less than 10%.  Fructans are not involved in endocrinopathic laminits (although a really enormous fructan overload will give the same kind of laminitis that occurs with a feed-room break-in, and carb overload: fever, systemic illness, endotoxemia etc as well as laminitis). The fructan theory of pasture-associated laminitis has become an urban myth, very hard to combat out there in the real world. 

Try this file for testing hay:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/2.%20Analyzing%20Hay%20and%20Feed%202013.pdf

Anyway, the good news is that no NSC or WSC needed. The bad news is that if you didn't get the right test, there may be other things missing that you need. Have a look at the file above.

I can't help you with the name mix-ups; I had a quick look but couldn't find any responses to your messages addressed "Maxine". Sorry. :)
--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Travis new test results, impossible?

 

I had blood drawn on Travis last week.  It was drawn about 9:30AM, he got his breakfast by 8AM (odtbc with minerals), I waited until after the blood draw to give him his pergolide.

He's been on 1mg pergolide since February for the seasonal rise and I wanted to see if he was ready to come off yet.

He's never had test results this good since we started the IR journey, and according to these numbers, he's not even IR when I plug them into the calculator.

Would someone mind reviewing and let me know if this is possible?  Maybe I read them wrong?

I can't see the ECHistory files in this new platform in order to upload the document, but I was able to link to it on Google: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2Lw913gVBuPbXFYaEppbnVKbjQ/view?usp=sharing

If you don't mind telling me how to find our history files, I'll be happy to update and upload there.

Thanks,

Wallene & Travis (the horse) in NC

September 2012


Re: hay tests to request and my name is coming up wrong

Nancy C
 

Hi Mimi

Cant help with your folder issues.  Here a couple of docs that may support what I am about to tell you

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing

You don't need WSC, just ESC and Starch.

Your name is appearing correctly in your posts. As long as you sign as you are, we know who you are.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: Prascend Question

 

Hi, Hilary - I don't think we have seen any negative effects of too much Prascend, except at the beginning if the dose is started too abruptly - then,as you say, the lack of appetite and lethargy occur.  I know of at least one member whose horse showed neuro signs at the beginning of pergolide use, and I believe she was unable to continue the pergolide. It is not likely it will be causing neuro signs after a number of months. Need Dr. Kellon's input here.

I am glad she is looking better and has no pulses - good work, you!
--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: laminitis sinker - 10 days ago - support please

Nancy C
 

Hi Sharon

When you are on the home page, scroll down to see CASE HISTORY sub group, which you need to join.

Not sure about giving ALCAR with NSAIDs and hope Dr Kellon will weigh in.

We can give you the dose for ALCAR is 1 gram per 100 lbs of BW. All recs for ancillary supplements assume you are on a balanced diet for efficacy. You need to make sure she's on at least the emergency diet and her trim is being addressed.

Backing off NSAIDs suddenly can result in rebound pain.  Wean her off slowly, spacing out the meds.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/154521?p=relevance,0,NSAID+rebound,20,2,0,2702712&offset=1

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message?p=relevance%2C0%2C%2522While%2Bdo%2Bmy%2B%2522list-keeping%2522%2Bchores%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0&newmsgnum=1&msgnum=135977

Make sure you click on the three buttons at the bottom of the second email link to make sure the whole email opens up.
--

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: Help with giving Prascend car

 

 I rang the changes on different treats many times; the end result was a suspicious horse. I would try giving the Beete-bites EquiPocket a try:

http://www.beetebites.com/equipockets/

Now, for many years, I give my 3 PPID horses their pergolide=prascend in a 3 cc syringe with unsweetened applesauce, and follow with a handful of IR safe treats. You can dissolve the Prascend in the applesause and then suck it up in the syringe; or dissolve it in a bit of water, add the applesauce and suck into a syringe. Try using a 6cc or 12 cc syringe at the beginning til you get used to the amounts.

--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: laminitis sinker - 10 days ago - support please

 

I changed my password and logged in again.
If I am in this main page with the image of the jumper  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main - I do see Files listed on the side but do not see the first listed mentioning how to put in my case history....which I'm wanting to do to make everyones life easier.

I also need help with pain - and I found this and now need Dr. Kellon - my vet does not know how to dose and if we want to lower bute we need some other help. 
For horses that have had longstanding problems with IR and foot pain, or
foot pain that does not respond despite establishing IR control, try
acetyl-L-carnitine for neuropathic pain. http://www.bulknutrition.com/
p1186_Acetyl-L-Carnitine_Powder_1Fast400.html. Please contact me
directly for dosing drkellon “at” gmail.com
I pulled her back down to 10cc IV 2X day, went oral and pain is very bad again.
So I'll try the email listed above for Eleanor.

thanks - Sharon & Elsa

On 4/29/2016 1:11 PM, Nancy C wrote:

Hi Sharon


ECIR doesn't allow attachments.  Honestly I am lost except to suggest that you may have a second email that is not a member of the group. What you describe is what one sees when they are not a member.

Make sure you are logged in on this email:  oneonone "@" telus....

The only other suggestions I can think of is to reboot and try later.


--

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



-- 
Sharon Pickthorne
One on One Software Training
Chair - NVI Chapter, BCHBC
Director, Horse Council BC
Chair - Joint Trails and Access Committee
250-337-1818

79821 - 79840 of 276098