Hi - I did a quick search through the messages but couldnt find the answer. Sorry if this is a repeat question.
Does this group feel that the OST is safe to use? I try to stick to the G/I ratio but I am curious as to how the OST compares to the G/I ratio. I'd love to test the same horse w/ both methods but am concerned about administering the Karo syrup.
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Nicole in VT
Joined 9/22/04
You could try Rainey Ginseng, 15 to 30 grams/day:
https://raineyginseng.com/shop/powder-capsules
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Eleanor in PA
EC Owner 2001
Hi.. Speaking of Whey Protein... I bought some from HorseTech before Claire and I determined that my mare's hay was already too high in Protein to supplement additional to try and address her wilting top line It is unopened in a 2.2 lb foil pouch. If anyone would like me to mail it so them, please let me know. I hate for it to go to waste.
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Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20and%20Tabby
Time of year can definitely give you a false positive on TRH stimulation (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24906932).
There are many, many possible reasons for low energy/low enthusiasm but you may be on to something with the diet being low in protein, potentially also calories in general and/or too low in simple carbohydrates for her. Try giving her 300 grams of oats and 100 grams of the lucerne immediately after exercising her for a week or so and see what happens.
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Eleanor in PA
EC Owner 2001
Timeline Photos
By ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin ResistanceFor more information go to ecirhorse.org and join us on our outreach group: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main
Catherine and Gem
October 2016
Suffolk, UK
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Catherine%20and%20Gem
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Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
I suspect my mare may have been misdiagnosed.
She's been on 1 x Prascend tablet per day for about a month now. She's more alert in herself but still lethargic being ridden. Could this laziness be the effect of incorrect dosage?
She has always tested negative for Cushing's using the static test. My vet did a TRH test in September (yes, I know ... ) which tested positive - just (result was 109, threshold was 100). I'm tempted to take her off the drugs and see what happens. She has no other symptoms than this lethargy and loss of topline.
She has always been lazy in the summer, though this year seemed worse. She ruptured her peroneus tertius last December so was off work for about 4 months which could contribute to lack of topline.
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God Bless!
Shannon and Majik (IR)
Houston 2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq
Here is the dilemma I have faced with both Majik and Rafiq (EC/over the rainbow bridge): I'm at a boarding stable with approx. 120 other horses (30 more across the street). Balancing hay is impossible b/c they change where they get the hay from regularly. I have her on a handful of low starch feed, and I need to check it again to make sure it is low enough. I need to know what it contains as far as nutrients, too. She has free access to salt and goes through it like crazy. No supplements at this time. That is my next step - trying to bring the diet under the guidelines here as closely as possible in this situation. She lives on dirt (big turnouts, but no grass) and has a fluffy stall with a walk out at night. I thought the diet was under control until now - so it is coming up on priority number one since new knowledge tonight. (Dangit!) I included a current picture of her in the folder to see body weight. She has a significant neck crest, but at least it is soft. I've battled my own health issues for decades, finally got the right diagnosis (Lyme), and the adjustments I required were severe. I'll do all I possibly can to get her back on track - she's my fur baby for sure.
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Thank you so MUCH!
Shannon and Majik (IR)
Houston 2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq
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Jaini (BVSc),Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy
Most importantly now, though, what should I do about the excessive drinking,urinating, and she is also very eager to eat most times (indicated high Leptin, perhaps?)
Hi Deborah,
One other thought: How warm is it in Tenessee and how much of a coat has Tara grown? We had 85 degree F weather last week and both of my Morgans have a pretty thick coat, so the one horse who doesn't sweat well drank more than usual water.
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Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR)
Bucks County, PA, USA
ECIR Primary Response
NRCplus 2011 ECIR 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx
Thank you, Jaini. I will try increasing the Prascend. She has been on 12 ml/day of APF Pro ever since mid August. I tried to back off with it and even tried using the 3 powdered herbs that some members had mentioned, but she gets lethargic and seems to be more sore without the real APF Pro. I have not asked my vet about compounded pergolide yet, but I think I will stick with the Prascend for the next few months, afraid to change too much. Its the APF that I would like to find an effective substitute for.
I am just surprised at the leptin because she has always had such a voracious appetite. It will be interesting to see if the next test is similar on that.
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Gayle August 2016
Alabama, USA
Kali Case History, Photo Album
Jaini - Oh crap! I didn't know that. She wasn't fasting, but it was hay only. Ugh. New farrier in the morning. We will bring those toes back. I will be doing bloodwork soon. We'll see where she is!
Thanks Eleanor - She had bad thrush from all the Houston rains and flooding. I will be getting new X-rays taken soon.
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God Bless!
Shannon and Majik (IR)
Houston 2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq
Most importantly now, though, what should I do about the excessive drinking,urinating, and she is also very eager to eat most times (indicated high Leptin, perhaps?)
Hi Deborah,
Good idea to test her IR status to see where she is currently. Your hay is low ESC + starch and diet looks good.
As to PPID, we are approaching the end of the seasonal rise. It's never a bad time to test when you have concerns, it's just that during the seasonal rise, the results are a little harder to interpret if they are only slightly high. If you can do it, getting the ACTH level when the vet is out will help you know where she is now. If it's clearly high, you can get that managed sooner rather than later. This is a link to the Liphook information about seasonal rise. If you go to the second graph, you will see how the levels change for normal horses.
http://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Seasonal-Changes-in-ACTH-Secretion2.pdf
PPID can cause muscle wasting, so testing would help you determine if that is what you are seeing.
A body score of 5 or slightly lower is recommended for IR horses to avoid the issues that fat deposits can create. You are welcome to post photos using the protocol in the following link if you would like to get an opinion on her body condition.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/How-to-Make-a-Photo-Album
Hope that helps!
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Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR)
Bucks County, PA, USA
ECIR Primary Response
NRCplus 2011 ECIR 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx
On Thursday, October 27, 2016, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:
The holidays are almost here and courses at www.drkellon.com are going on sale, including the basic nutrition/balancing course, NRC Plus and Cushing's and Insulin Resistance. There is a 2 for the price of 1 offer and you also get a 6 month trial subscription to the e-zine The Horse's Mouth. You can use the course(s) for yourself or give it/them to a friend. Courses purchased during the sale may be taken at any time that is convenient.
--Eleanor in PA
EC Owner 2001
Laura,
I also have a Morgan whose weight has been a challenge to keep down. She is IR (for 8+ years) and PPID (for 3 years). Yes, absolutely, Magnesium is very important in getting her crest and other abnormal fatty areas controlled. My mare had huge bulges above her eyes before I started supplementing Mg - it made a huge difference rather quickly and also keeps her crest softer. The moderators have already let you know how much she needs, so there is a great starting point.
Also, IR horses often also have iron overload, which increases inflammatory conditions throughout the body and can accelerate the onset of PPID. When originally tested, my mare's ferritin level was 100 units over the high end of normal. It took a year after I increased her copper and zinc intake and got iron out of our well water before her ferritin dropped into the normal range.
Weight management is so key to keeping your horse in a healthful state. I cannot free feed my mare, but I do feed small portions throughout the day. (I have that luxury because she lives at home.) Nothing she eats is over 10% WSC+starch, and she gets copper and zinc in addition to the Mg.
Here is the thing -- While my mare was much younger (now 25), my vet tried to convince me to keep her slimmed down. I had a hard time with that because she was ravenous and I gave in too much. If I could go back 10 or more years, I would have controlled her diet better and kept her body condition score closer to 5-6 rather than between 6-7. The extra weight contributed to general inflammation and took a toll on her tendons & ligaments, as well as promoting IR and its resulting oxidative stress that likely increased arthritic conditions and contributed to onset of PPID.
When she was younger I couldn't imagine how her being overweight would affect her. I did not appreciate that I would later regret dismissing try vet's warnings. I cannot go back and do it differently, but I do all I can now to keep her weight down and provide balanced minerals, antioxidants, anti-inflammatories, and pergolide for the PPID. She is doing well despite my early lack of wisdom, but she would be far better off had I heeded my vet's warnings many years ago. So, all this is to say that you can get and keep your gelding quite well, despite IR, and this group is the right place to be in order to learn how. Happy to know you are on board!
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Claudia & Silhouette 02/2014
California Central Coast
I just updated my horse Mannana Tara's Case History as well as the hay analysis of the hay she is eating currently. I'm posting because you will see if you look at her Case History that she is drinking more than normal and urinating more than I recall her doing before. She is also looking a bit gaunt through the muscles behind her withers. I am wondering about possible Cushings. She was 12 years old last May. The vet is coming next week to give her a botulism vaccine and I could have her tested then, I believe, but aren't we in the middle of the seasonal rise and testing then is not recommended? What to do? Tara is also due to be tested for her IR status-insulin, glucose and Leptin and I could have that done then also. I will have to explain to vet that we don't fast before the IR test as she mentioned in passing that if I wanted to test her for IR she would have to be fasted.... sigh... I have gone over the reasons why we don't fast and will be prepared. This is a new vet in a new location for me and haven't had blood work done for IR since moving here so will have to be sure they send to Cornell, handle blood correctly, etc...
Most importantly now, though, what should I do about the excessive drinking,urinating, and she is also very eager to eat most times (indicated high Leptin, perhaps?)
Thanks!
Deborah November 2012
Santa Fe, Tennessee (Middle Tennessee)
Mannana Tara https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deborah%20and%20Tara
The holidays are almost here and courses at www.drkellon.com are going on sale, including the basic nutrition/balancing course, NRC Plus and Cushing's and Insulin Resistance. There is a 2 for the price of 1 offer and you also get a 6 month trial subscription to the e-zine The Horse's Mouth. You can use the course(s) for yourself or give it/them to a friend. Courses purchased during the sale may be taken at any time that is convenient.
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Eleanor in PA
EC Owner 2001
Laura,
Horses with inadequate salt for a prolonged period end up with normal sodium in the blood at the expense of the tissues. Since the brain reads the blood sodium level it will not trigger salt hunger and the horse stays chronically dehydrated. You can reset the system by syringing in 1 to 2 oz/day for a few days. Wait until after she has eaten to do this. If she vigorously objects her mouth should be examined for ulcers or inflammation that could be irritated by the salt.
At the same time start putting salt in the bottom of her feed tub before adding her meals. Don't mix it in. Check to see if she starts eating the salt after you stop syringing it in. If she still won't eat it you can dissolve the salt in water and spray it on her hay.
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Eleanor in PA
EC Owner 2001